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  1. #1
    Manure Ginobili Mixability's Avatar
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    Anyone make a choice yet? I've weighed all the pros and cons of both, but I've decided to just get both. I need the Blu-ray for Disney/Pixar movies for the young one and I like the DVD/HD-DVD on one disc feature, since those will still work on the portable player and the player in the truck. A PS3 and HD-DVD add on for the 360 should do just fine, right? I wish one format would just fold already, but oh well.

  2. #2
    Horny Spur BeerIsGood!'s Avatar
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    Here's a semi-recent article on the high res debate:



    Blu-Ray DVD vs. HD-DVD: Who's Winning the War
    08/22/2007 -art Feierman

    There was news this week, in fact, it was probably the first good news from the somewhat beleagured HD-DVD camp, in quite some time.

    The short of it, is that Paramount Studios (part of Viacom), announced that they would, in the future, be supporting only HD-DVD. Paramount is one of the studios that has been offering up content in both formats. Other Viacom studios are supporting both.

    There is one big caveat, however, Paramount's Steven Speilberg produced movies will continue to be on both formats, and as we all know, the man is responsible for a number of huge blockbuster movies.

    That now has two major studios only offering HD-DVD; Paramount, and Universal. Everyone else out there, is either producing in both formats, only in Blu-Ray, or in some cases, have not put out any hi-def content.

    Paramount has been on a roll, in terms of box office success, this year, most notably with Transformers, and Shrek 3. While both of those are huge successes, those movies do cater to a younger market, and may not have as huge an impact in terms of hi-definition dvd sales as movies that appeal more to the adult crowd. My own 15 year old daughter, for example, could care less about having hi-def DVDs - to her, SD-DVD is just fine. As a result, for myself, and many families, those types of movies don't figure in significantly into a HD-DVD vs. Blu-Ray purchase decision. (More significant, are movies like Lord of the Rings (expected in both formats), and the Bourne series (HD-DVD only - Universal) Speaking of Lord of the Rings, a rumor had been circulating, that when released, the Blu-Ray version would be the "extended edition" while HD-DVD would be the original (and about 40 minutes shorter, per movie) theatrical release. Whether this rumor is true, or not, I have no idea.

    HD-DVD format - their biggest win so far?
    Well, of course there is Universal studios exclusive (since the start), and now, Paramount, however, strangely, the biggest win to date, for HD-DVD, has to be the Nintendo Wii game machine.

    No, the Wii doesn't support either format, but it is a blockbuster success, coming out of nowhere, has dramatically impacted predicted sales of Sony's Playstation. Without the Wii, Sony would probably ship twice as many (or more) Blu-Ray playing game machines, this year, then they are curently selling. I don't follow that closely, but I gather Nintendo's low price point has it selling well more than twice as many game machines as Sony, and that means the Blu-Ray folks will have probably at least one million less Blu-Ray playing devices in the US market, by year end, than they had anticipated.

    Can you say ouch?

    On that same subject, it is reported that PS3 owners buy less hi-def movies than people who buy dedicated hi-def players (hardly a surprise), but the sheer number of PS3's out there, guaranty significant Blu-Ray DVD sales.

    Other recent Blu-Ray DVD, and HD-DVD developments include:
    Blockbuster (the movie rental chain) will not stock HD-DVD in their stores, but will make them available online. That is a big win for the Blu-Ray camp.

    Target stores will also only carry Blu-ray, a second, but less significant win.

    Samsung joins LG with a dual format offering. Unfortunately, the current high cost of the dual format players, pretty much makes them niche products. Afterall, you can easily buy a Sony PS3 for Blu-Ray, and an entry level Toshiba HD-DVD player, and still save hundreds of dollars compared to the dual format players.

    Sony PS3 - Blu-Ray's trump card
    For playing Blu-ray disks in my theater and in my testing room, I use the Sony PS3, and the results are great. I was very pleased with overall performance (expecially for the low price compared to other DVD players), when I got my first PS3 shortly after they started shipping.

    Even better, the PS3's easy wireless interfacing to my home's internet setup, is great. Downloading the PS3 upgrades is a snap, and now my PS3 supports 1080p/24, which, represents the way you really want to be displaying those hi-def movies. The PS3 is not perfect, of course, but, the experience with the PS3 has been excellent, as compared to my Toshiba HD-DVD player.

    Where do we go from here?

    I'm still of the belief that it is Sony's (Blu-ray) war to win or lose. Here's why:

    So far, Blu-ray players are still significantly more expensive. You can buy an "entry-level" HD-DVD player for $249, and will have to spend about twice as much for the equivalent Blu-Ray player. That, of course helps explain the popularity of the PS3 as a movie player. Spend the $600, and get a great game machine and hi-def player combined.

    The price point for the Blu-Ray players, I suspect, is largely controlled by Sony (licensing agreements, etc.), and, if I am correct, their decision to keep Blu-Ray player prices high, is hurting them. I only barely buy into the "more advanced technology" excuse for the higher prices. The huge numbers of PS3's sold, should give Sony the kind of economies of scale to bring those prices down.

    The other key thing the Blu-Ray camp needs to do, is break that HD-DVD - Universal exclusivity agreement.

    By Christmas, it's almost dead certain you will be able to buy an HD-DVD player for under $200, and that's a mainstream price point. If the Blu-Ray camp can get close - a $299 player, by then, I think that will be close enough to further strengthen the Blu-Ray advantage.

    Conversely, if the cheapest Blu-Ray players are still $400 - or even $500, and HD-DVD is down at $199, then I expect we'll see more defections from the Blu-Ray supporting movie studios.

    Blu-Ray has had the momentum. Get at least price compe ive on the players (a $100 or less spread should do it), and get those Universal movies, and Blu-Ray will be in position to knock out HD-DVD once and for all.

    Personally, I'm rooting for Blu-Ray, to dominate. As I see it, they have the ability to win the war. The alternative, is not an HD-DVD win, (at least not in the near term), but rather a long war that could drag on like Iraq, with no definite win in sight.

    The sooner there is a winner, the sooner we'll be able to buy hi-def movie les for under $20, and that is what will further drive sales (along with sub-$200 players).

    I'll take another look at where things are, at the height of the Christmas shopping season, to see if there have been any significant shifts.

    Now it's time to fire up my PS3, and the new Optoma HD81-LV 1080p projector, which I'm in the middle of reviewing. I can tell you this, the Optoma - now the brightest under $10,000 1080p projector - and PS3, on my 128" screen, produces a magnificant image. Last evening I watched Shooter in Blu-Ray, and also some short segments from the movies House of the Flying Daggers, and Night at the Museum.

    Awesome - no wonder our family only goes to the movie theaters now, when it's a movie we must see immediately. One such was Bourne Ultimatum - which it turns out was a bit dissapointing - it could have benefitted by having a plot, but, on the other hand, the action was great.

    A last word. If you don't yet have a large plasma display, or LCD TV, or better still, of course a projector, it's hard to imagine what a difference a hi-def player makes. While the jump in resolution alone (over SD-DVD) is easily dramatic, the real plus is picture quality. Although the jump from SD-DVD to hi-def isn't quite as great as from standard TV to HDTV, it is still a massive improvement in picture quality.

    With a good front projection system (and if you go 1080p, that starts at about $3000 with a screen - just add player and audio), most people will swear that the experience is just plain superior to walking into a movie theater (yes, even the digital ones).

    And, NO, you can't stop by my place to check it out. You're on your own.



    http://www.projectorreviews.com/advi...date082007.php

  3. #3
    Name you'd love to touch maxpower's Avatar
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    I'm also patiently waiting for some better news.

    I am hoping hd-dvd wins out. All visual/aural things being equal, I don't buy the whole, more storage space on disks to give more content argument.

    As it is, Hd-dvds, from what I have read, for the most part offer more content and interactive features than blu-ray equivalents.
    Historically, promises of more features has been a letdown.
    If both formats can give 1080p resolutions with lossless audio, that is all I care about. Additional features are appreciated but not a necessity.

  4. #4
    Manure Ginobili Mixability's Avatar
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    Also, it seems like most of the HD-DVDs being made are dual layer 25GB and the Blu-rays are single layer 30GB, so much for ALOT more space.

  5. #5
    Slovenian Master Slomo's Avatar
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    Purely technically Blu-ray is way ahead of HD-DVD. Blu-ray still has an upgrade path ahead of it, while HD DVD is hitting it's theoretical limits.

    The arguments about which looks better is dumb, because both can hold sufficient data for the movie to look good, so if there's an issue there blame the studio not the format.

    The Studios are really the one deciding and I think it's wrong, because they don't worry about the consumer as much as they worry about their bottom line. I like the decision to offer movies in both formats and let the better one win it in the end, with the new Samsung and LG players that play both formats there's also not the danger that consumer would be stuck with the wrong player when it is all said and done.

    I'm a fan of blu-ray because it's technically superior, but so was Betamax and we all know what happened...

  6. #6
    Still Hates Small Ball Spurminator's Avatar
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    I'm about five years from even considering either. I just got my first HD TV and it's a 760p... Got an up-converting DVD player, so while my movies aren't HD they're still "big-screen." Coming after a 27 inch tube, it's all I need right now.

  7. #7
    Corpus Christi Spurs Fan Phenomanul's Avatar
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    It's funny you would ask that... I too had been fed up with the stalemate. I originally bought a Blu-Ray Player 2 months ago.... but when Heroes Season 1 was issued only in HD-DVD the thought of having to purchase the regular DVDs frustrated me to no end.

    Consequently I went down to Best Buy yesterday and bought me an XBox360 with the HD-DVD adapter. I'm deeper in the credit hole, but now I can just go in and buy either Blu-Ray or HD-DVD. No more anxiety. The side benefit is that I also ended up with a gaming console.

  8. #8
    Manure Ginobili Mixability's Avatar
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    Purely technically Blu-ray is way ahead of HD-DVD. Blu-ray still has an upgrade path ahead of it, while HD DVD is hitting it's theoretical limits.

    The arguments about which looks better is dumb, because both can hold sufficient data for the movie to look good, so if there's an issue there blame the studio not the format.

    The Studios are really the one deciding and I think it's wrong, because they don't worry about the consumer as much as they worry about their bottom line. I like the decision to offer movies in both formats and let the better one win it in the end, with the new Samsung and LG players that play both formats there's also not the danger that consumer would be stuck with the wrong player when it is all said and done.

    I'm a fan of blu-ray because it's technically superior, but so was Betamax and we all know what happened...
    I've heard a few of those dual format players skimp out on the ability to play the enhanced features of the disc. They'll play the movie fine, but you're out of luck if you want to access the bonus materials. Again, it's just a few of the players, not all of them. Research before you buy.

  9. #9
    Slovenian Master Slomo's Avatar
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    I've heard a few of those dual format players skimp out on the ability to play the enhanced features of the disc. They'll play the movie fine, but you're out of luck if you want to access the bonus materials. Again, it's just a few of the players, not all of them. Research before you buy.
    Yeah, the early models had issues. I hear they fixed most of them. It has mostly to do with the programming of the extra features - something that is not entirely standardized (early DVD players had similar problems), but I also heard that most of this issues can be addressed by firmware upgrades.

    As for the research before you buy advice - always do that. In the days of internet forums there's enough good impartial info around so it's really not that difficult.

  10. #10
    Manure Ginobili Mixability's Avatar
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    Yeah, the early models had issues. I hear they fixed most of them. It has mostly to do with the programming of the extra features - something that is not entirely standardized (early DVD players had similar problems), but I also heard that most of this issues can be addressed by firmware upgrades.

    As for the research before you buy advice - always do that. In the days of internet forums there's enough good impartial info around so it's really not that difficult.
    good to hear, but since the wifey-to-be gave me the go ahead on the PS3, who am I to argue?

  11. #11
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    Also, it seems like most of the HD-DVDs being made are dual layer 25GB and the Blu-rays are single layer 30GB, so much for ALOT more space.
    Now I haven't really checked out either, but my understanding is that the blueray goes to 25GB/50GB vs. the HD DVD 15GB/30GB. Standard DVDs are 4.7GB/8.5. Modern high definition video is as much as 12 times the NTSC resolution. This means to get the same recording time on a media, you need 102GB of storage. To me, that means that the HD DVD is capable of a maximum of 1 HR 10 Min at the same compression, and Blue Ray 1 HR and 57 Min. Now if standard DVD records both interlaced fields, then double those numbers to 2 HR 20 min for HD DVD and 3 HR 54 min for Blue Ray... Blue Ray almost the same time available as NTSC of DVD!

  12. #12
    I cannot grok its fullnes leemajors's Avatar
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    when blu-ray and/or hd-dvd burners become reasonably priced, i'll think about getting a player for my tv. until then i am perfectly content with my current setup.

  13. #13
    Believe. drunkendan's Avatar
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    Here's a semi-recent article on the high res debate:

    The short of it, is that Paramount Studios (part of Viacom), announced that they would, in the future, be supporting only HD-DVD. Paramount is one of the studios that has been offering up content in both formats. Other Viacom studios are supporting both.
    Regarding the article, the reason Paramount is going strictly HD-DVD (for the most part) is because they received a huge "advertising incentive" from Toshiba. There were rumors that Microsoft paid Paramount and Dreamworks $150 million combined to go strictly HD-DVD. Microsoft denied the rumors but I think the still had something to do with it.

    http://www.tvpredictions.com/microsoft082907.htm

  14. #14
    Slovenian Master Slomo's Avatar
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    ...Now if standard DVD records both interlaced fields, then double those numbers to 2 HR 20 min for HD DVD and 3 HR 54 min for Blue Ray... Blue Ray almost the same time available as NTSC of DVD!
    What are you trying to say?

  15. #15
    Manure Ginobili Mixability's Avatar
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    So you're figuring you can't fit more on a blu-ray than a regular dvd?

  16. #16
    I cannot grok its fullnes leemajors's Avatar
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    Samsung and Sony both have firmware updates for their Blu-ray players today, with Samsung patching the BD-P1000 and BD-P1200 to fix compatibility problems found in several movies, and Sony applying updates for the BDP-S300 to address BD-Java compatibility in movie extras (a similar problem to the one identified here). Unfortunately for owners, only the Samsung BD-P1200 has an Ethernet connection, so BD-P1000 and Sony BDP-S300 players will have to be updated via burned DVD/CDs. You can thank the Blu-ray association for not mandating an Ethernet port in your own way.
    http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/format-wa...ues-309431.php

  17. #17
    Believe. Walter Craparita's Avatar
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    Don't bet the farm on Sony....

  18. #18
    Linger Ficking Good! CuckingFunt's Avatar
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    I don't see there being one dominant format like there was with Beta/VHS, unfortunately.

    As long as different studios are using different technologies, people will buy whatever is necessary to watch the films they want. People are much more accustomed to having multiple consoles/components all running at the same time today than they were in the 80's.

  19. #19
    It is what it is. Mark in Austin's Avatar
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    I'm a huge fan of Sony LCD televisions, and own a Vaio laptop, but I gotta say I hope they lose this format war. There's a lot of stuff customer service wise that bothers me about Sony.

  20. #20
    Damn You Commies T Park's Avatar
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    IIRC there is a unit that plays both HD DVD and Blu Ray...

  21. #21
    Billups to Hamilton Burn531's Avatar
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    I've got a PS3 so I've been looking mainly at Blu Ray les. Ever since Paramount went to HD dvd I've been thinking about getting the add on for the 360. That way I got both formats.

    Does anyone know if Fox is Blu Ray exclusive? There's tons of movies from them I'd love to have in High Def.

  22. #22
    Slovenian Master Slomo's Avatar
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    I'm a huge fan of Sony LCD televisions, and own a Vaio laptop, but I gotta say I hope they lose this format war. There's a lot of stuff customer service wise that bothers me about Sony.
    Rooting for the better format to fail is dumb. I'm speaking in strict technical terms here. More storage space on Media=less compression=better picture/sound quality, that's the simplest way to put it and everybody knows it to be true. Even the people behind HD DVD do, otherwise they wouldn't now experiment with a very difficult and unreliable 3rd layer technology to try to close the gap to Blu-ray. All the other reasons that both sides are coming up with are BS and their goals are not in the best interest of the consumers.

    Yes, I know transfer speed and other stuff play a part in it, but it doesn't change what I said above.

    Don't bet the farm on Sony....
    Blu-ray is not about Sony anymore so this sort of argument is stupid because it confuses the real issue. It is true that Sony gets to gain the most from blu-ray but the same can be said for Toshiba in the case of HD DVD so unless you're a big shareholder of either companies you really shouldn't give a - I don't.

    As long as different studios are using different technologies, people will buy whatever is necessary to watch the films they want. People are much more accustomed to having multiple consoles/components all running at the same time today than they were in the 80's.
    Unfortunately (fortunately?) studios are not using different technology when producing the movies, it doesn't matter one bit to them to output the thing on HD DVD or on Blu-ray.

    The decision that they eventually make is the result of how much money (bribe) they've received from on side or the other and they really don't think that much about the consumer.

    If the decision was purely technical we would have moved ahead from this debate a couple of years ago and would now be discussing how to make it even better/cheaper. And you don't need a bunch of engineers to tell you what is good and what's not - level the field and the consumer will make the choice for you - just leave company politics out of it.

  23. #23
    Slovenian Master Slomo's Avatar
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    IIRC there is a unit that plays both HD DVD and Blu Ray...

  24. #24
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    What are you trying to say?
    Well, you don't get as much on HD-DVD as Blue-Ray. You will have less movies that can fit on one HD-DVD than Blue-Ray without extra compression that can compromise the video quality. My DVD Blackhawk Down (extended cut) has a running time of 152 minutes. The theater version is 144 minutes. With HD-DVD, you either have a movie split on to 2 disks, or you have to lose quality with extra video compression where it is not an issue on Blue-Ray. More movies will be on 2 disks that can fit on one Blue-Ray or on DVD in standard format. In the near future, when costs of automation brings the prices down, HD-DVD will cost more because of the added packaging and disks used.

    How many movies does everyone like that run more than 140 minutes?

    I'm one that buys TV series in DVD box sets. A typical DVD box set with six disks would still take six disks with Blue Ray in HDTV. Consider your typical TV program, I'll use "24" as an example. Each season has 24 episodes and special features. It has seven disks, with four episodes each on six disks and the special features on a seventh. The same series shot in High Definition would still only require the seven disks in Blue Ray, but nine disks in HD-DVD. It would only hold three episodes per disk instead of 4. Standard DVD is capable of holding up to five NTSC episodes of 48 minutes each. Standard TV series that cover an hour of broadcast time are usually between 44 and 46 minutes each. Blue-Ray can hold five episodes of 46 min 48 secs each in high definition, and HD-DVD can only hold three episodes of 46 min 40 secs each.

    Now if I look at my first season of Stargate SG-1, there are as many as five episodes per disk. It's a five disk box set. Again, the series would fit in High definition on 5 Blue Ray disks, but it would take eight, maybe nine HD-DVD disks since at least three of the disks are almost fully utilized.

    Do we really want that many more disks in our libraries?

    I prefer Blue Ray.

    One more thing. If I recall, Blue ray initial specs were up to 80GB per disk, but now I think I was confusing that with the PS3 Hard Drive. I was surprised to find 50GB listed in the specs. Now I did find Blue Ray disks up to 100GB!

    A couple links:

    What Are Blu-ray Discs?

    Part of text:

    The Compe ion

    One of the common misconceptions about Blu-ray is that it is same as HD-DVD.

    While both formats offer increased disc capacity and features currently unavailable on a DVD, Blu-ray excels in several important categories. A dual-layer HD-DVD carries a maximum capacity of 30GB, while a dual-layer Blue-ray Disc offers 50GB of recording space.

    In addition, Blu-ray discs feature a scratch resistant coating aimed at prolonging lifespan and providing greater durability.

    Both formats are capable of a similar data transfer rates of about 36 Mbps, but the Blue-ray format dramatically accelerates the transfer of audio and video, boasting an impressive 54 Mbps, in comparison to HD-DVD's 36 Mbps. That boost, coupled with a dramatically faster maximum video bit rate, offers a sharper, more detailed viewing experience.
    Hitachi unveils 100 GB Blu-ray disc

    part of text:

    Hitachi is first to have developed a four-layer Blu-ray disc that is compatible with the current generation of Blu-ray recorders and playback devices. According to a report published by PC Pro in the UK, the disc works with a “slightly modified” standard optical head of Blu-ray drives. The “slight” modification apparently can be achieved through a firmware update.

    PC Pro said that there was no information on when the 100 GB disc will be ready for a commercial release.

  25. #25
    Live by what you Speak. DarkReign's Avatar
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    Im not impressed with either format.

    My wife got me an HD-DVD player for my bday. Looks great.

    Blu-Ray costs a buttload more. HDDVD is cheaper. Thats why I ended up with HDDVD.

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