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What 4th year players on bad teams are "coming up in the clutch"
If Devin improves his pull up 3 percentage then naturally he would become more "clutch". If he is the guarded by the second best perimeter defender on the other team when we get another creator then he becomes more "clutch". If Devin shoots 25% on clutch situations but has several of them to make a youtube highlight video then he becomes more "clutch".
What 4th year players on bad teams are "coming up in the clutch"
Yeah, weird that an NBA fan can imagine clutchness doesn't exist.
Clutchness is litterally what separates good from great players, the former ones fading, the later ones rising, putting the team on their shoulder and making plays when the game is on the line.
Non clutch players don't want the last shot in game 7, clutch players live for that shot.
The data suggesting that the "clutch gene" is interesting and certainly compelling, but it belies our own eyes - right? Just like you've mentioned... we've seen Manu (or Horry) time and time again rise up in clutch moments. We've seen Harden time and time again fail to rise up in those moments.
Certainly there is a valid argument that being clutch is a function of opportunity. You have to be in those moments to have a chance to step up in them. And we've certainly seen times when Manu (and Horry, notably against us in 2003) fails in big moments as well... so it's clear that there isn't some perfect "clutch gene".
However, even if the players we think are "clutch" are merely equaling their normal performance level (when adjusting for the increased difficulty of clutch time) - they are still stepping up to take those shots and deliver at some expectation. Contrast that to players who consistently perform WELL BELOW their normal level. There are definitely "unclutch" players! My concern is that Devin is our #2 or #1b... we need him to be big in big moments.
(This wasn't directed at you, Sugus, I just thought your post was good to expand upon)
Did he? What clutch plays specifically did he make in those games? He had good games, but did he make clutch plays? I provided a direct play-by-play in the last two minutes of 4Q and OT for every close game the Spurs have played this year on page 2.
- Against Utah, Devin's only appearance in the last two minutes was a rebound and making 1 of 2 FT with 3.2 seconds to go to increase the lead from 6 to 7. Is that clutch?
- Against NYK, Devin only appearances in the play-by-play were an assist with 1:29 to play in regulation, and a missed 3 with :24 to go in OT (and if you go back and watch that missed three, it was pretty poor decision making by Devin to even put up that shot, it's in fact the shot the made me decide to make this thread, because we've seen similar shots in at least 2 other cases just in the last month - against SAC and against BKY).
If you are arguing that you can't hold this all against Devin because the rest of the team sucks, okay... that's a decent approach... but it is somewhat undermined by the fact that other Spurs on the same team do make clutch plays more frequently.
No problem, I love the discussion.
Indeed as you say, there is simply far too much "eye test" evidence backing up some players' naturally clutch-er performances and then the "regular mortal" players, who tend to struggle in big moments (which is presumably the default outcome).
At the end of the day, many performances that can statistically be considered "clutch" (close game in final minutes) are simply a product of the players being able to execute plays and shots at a normal level, in spite of the adverse conditions like fatigue, mental hurdle, pressure etc. This is the "Ray Allen 3" performances.
But then -- there's also these extraordinary performances, where a player simply trascends the game and rises a level above the rest in order to win it. The ones where saying "clutch performance" doesn't begin to cut it. These are the "Manu's shot in Athens '04" performances (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OVr1VfRJiY).
Therefore, I'd go further and assert that not only is clutchness real, it is measurable at both the eye-test and statistical level (though the heroics are subjective and can't really be quantified). There's levels to it. I'd love to see the numbers, and I'm sure there's a lot of privately-held stats and information on this for NBA teams to analyze nowadays.
Th only correct answer to this question is that Devin sucks and he’s clearly the second best player on the spurs, which tells you how historically and the roster is outside of wemby. The only way to not piss off wemby and for him to demand a trade before the rookie deal is up is to trade for Trae young.
Also, PATFO sucks.
He doesn't take it to the basket enough to be an all star. He doesn't have the ability to beat his man to the basket instead prefering to launch 3 point shots. That's his game because of his limited abilities.
He takes 16 percent of his shots at the rim, and finishes at an ELITE 71%.
finally we agree on something
I went through about 1 page of this and jumped to the end. The question is MOOT.
Vassell is not the main scorer he's like a 3rd or 4th leading scorer ideally. He's also our best shooter, so if we don't want him taking the "clutch shot" we need another shooter or two. Which is the furthest thing from a news flash this message board needs. Did we think AJ was a clutch shooter before that first championship?
(not to denigrate the premise of the OP but...)
Shooting a clutch shot doesn't mean you're a clutch player.
The same way saying something idiotic doesn't necessarily mean you're an idiot.
16% is low for a ball handling guard tho. its not like he's just a catch and shoot guy. its not his finishing ability in question, its his consistency at getting to the rim
Devin had a really strong, aggressive drive towards the rim in the closing minutes of regulation against the Knicks that I recall commenting on in the game thread, because it is exactly what we need to see more of from him. IIRC, he earned some FTs with that drive. Need more of that.
No, it's that PATFO are above reproach, know more about basketball than you ever will, 99% of the players in the league either suck or aren't good enough in some way to fit into the Spurs precious "culture" and if they're just patient, they'll either stumble into a perfect roster via the draft or will trade for Antetokounmpo or Doncic.
You know a player is clutch when the opponents' strategy is to deny them the ball in game-winning situations. You know a player is clutch when that guy is on your team and you want the ball in his hands for the win.
Neither of these apply to Devin.
I rooted for the Spurs to draft him because I thought he'd a defensive stopper and have the offensive ability to be an All-Star. Wrong on both. Next year is Year Five for him. His high floor is about to touch his ceiling. If it hasn't already.
Plays the game for himself. Doesn't make his teammates better. Makes difficult jumpshots because he generally can't beat his man off-the-dribble, but that's not a recipe for *reliable* shotmaking. He'll never be clutch because he doesn't make smart decisions when games are not on the line, and even less so when they are. Current roster plays smarter ball running offense through Victor when Devin's not on the floor.
He's a Sixth Man of the Year on a championship team. If he's a starter, you're not winning a ring.
Yeah, that post doesn't necessarily make you an idiot.
Not sure where that came from. His consensus projection was 3 and D, with the D being team defense. That dovetailed nicely with his #11 draft slot. If you were really expecting an All Star, that would explain the disappointment. The reality is that he is far above his projection, probably a 90-95% development outcome.
I genuinely thought of that come back as I wrote that post!Yeah, that post doesn't necessarily make you an idiot.
Nice one
Do you really mean this?
If yes just stop wasting ur energy thinking Wemby could do that. He’s not like us
Only scenario he’d ask to leave is if Pop retires. Even that isn’t given bc he seems to be loyal and a people person.
He’s closer to ManU than Timmy or even worse TP
We got to trade Wembanyama RIGHT NOW because he sucks in the clutch.
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