Actually Pop might be a genius....tbh. Some thoughts after 1 Quarter into the Season.

[scott]

I guess I'm just not that invested/hung up on the "generational prospect" label and expectations, then? You say it yourself, it's pretty stupid and wildly thrown around, moreso in the modern era. Zion was supposed to be "generational" as well. Why am I supposed to compare Wemby to freakin' Jordan or Bird or whomever? That's a terribly harsh bar to clear, and I simply don't agree that his rookie season being better or worse than theirs, is defining what his future will look like.




Sorry to say, but no doubts here -- this is definitely chicken little talk, lol. Wemby has about a -100% chance of playing under a QO. His greatness basically guarantees him a blank cheque from the FO, and with the amount of money a #1 pick's designated rookie max extension will generate, AND his relatively frail body/possible injury concerns, he just will not do that. His "entourage" would be re ed to even suggest it, let alone let him go through with it. Besides, this is the modern NBA - everyone knows you sign the contract first, then you demand the trade

Sorry, the NBA doesn't allow for Blank Checks, only for max checks. The difference between a FA max and a designated rookie Max isn't so great that it can't be made up for via endorsement deals in a bigger market on a winning team. Don't forget that, because it matters. This is exactly the kind of laissez faire at ude that will bite us in the ass. If the FO has a "blank check" mentality towards making Wemby happy, they sure as are deploying it now, instead choosing to surround him with a roster and a coach who doesn't to call any plays or hold anyone accountable.

Secondly... You say this as a terrible thing, but I just don't see how it's "embarrassing" on a personal level for Wemby to not live up to some floor-raising requirement as if it matters at all in the big picture? He's playing with scrubs and everyone knows it. What gives if the media gives him some slack for it? It'll be in between a mix of his highlights, no doubt. I don't see it having had an impact on another rookie's career before, and I don't think a player with a poise and character like Wemby's would be the first to fall for something like "OMG the embarrassment of not getting your team to the playoffs!!" or something.

He's a 19 year old rookie big man. Him not being ready to lift a team is anything but unexpected. People just don't realize how much more prepared players like Timmy, Drob etc were coming into the league at 24-25. Lastly, I've said it before, but I absolutely would give Wemby flak if the Spurs were as bad next year. I'm not expecting contention or even playoffs, but improvement in areas for sure, which Wemby (and the team) are already displaying. Baby steps here.

It's not Wemby who will deserve the flak, it's the front office who's already failed him once. Wemby is performing great as a rookie, well enough, in fact, to have made a difference. Instead, the coach and the front office have used this gift to somehow manage get worse.

Next year, when the Spurs are bad again and the excuse is that we're still the youngest team in the league and we need Topic or whoever the we draft to have time to develop, we'll be hearing the same excuses. It's already happening from the people on this board who said you don't tank again if you land Wemby.

OTOH, if you're expecting major improvement from the youngest team in the league in the midst of a tanking rebuild, you might have some expectations problems to sort out.

It's just gonna take a while, 2 to 3 years for sure. I'm not fully sold on OKC yet, but we'd be lucky to have a similar trajectory at this point.

It's not major improvement we're talking about... just ANY improvement. Running back the same team + the greatest prospect in 20 years should yield SOME improvement, not make your team remarkably worse. As stated, multiple times, a lot of us would be fine with a poor record if it came with clear signs of progress and development, and an evident effort to maximize Wemby's development. Instead, as eloquently stated by other posters, we're setting his rookie season on fire.

[scott]

The Sniff Crew all like to ask "What does it matter if we are historically bad in Wemby's rookie year? Who cares if the coach and FO surround him with a garbage lineup and embarrass themselves?" as if no one notices this . This franchise was already found it challenging to attract talent when we had the league's best culture and reputation for winning... how do you think players will view coming to San Antonio when that's all gone?

In case you haven't noticed, player empowerment is higher than ever. "We'll just use this draft capital to trade for a big name!" Yeah, that sounds great right up until that player makes it known he doesn't want to come here, will be disgruntled, and will bolt at the first opportunity.

[Sugus]

Sorry, the NBA doesn't allow for Blank Checks, only for max checks. The difference between a FA max and a designated rookie Max isn't so great that it can't be made up for via endorsement deals in a bigger market on a winning team. Don't forget that, because it matters. This is exactly the kind of laissez faire at ude that will bite us in the ass. If the FO has a "blank check" mentality towards making Wemby happy, they sure as are deploying it now, instead choosing to surround him with a roster and a coach who doesn't to call any plays or hold anyone accountable.

Doesn't Wemby have to play a year on a QO for that to be a possibility, though? Again, if the proposition is Wemby going that path, I'll believe it when I see it. Absolutely no reason for it (when again he can simply ask out afterwards) and tons of reasons to sign, from job security to good PR. It's not laissez-faire to say "the Spurs could be bad and the #1 pick will still want to sign his 145 million dollar (or whatever amount) extension", at all, just the reality.

I'll take it even further and say, if Wemby is the type of player to even contemplate ditching the team before his rookie contract is even up -- he's not at all the player we're expecting him to be.

It's not Wemby who will deserve the flak, it's the front office who's already failed him once. Wemby is performing great as a rookie, well enough, in fact, to have made a difference. Instead, the coach and the front office have used this gift to somehow manage get worse.

Next year, when the Spurs are bad again and the excuse is that we're still the youngest team in the league and we need Topic or whoever the we draft to have time to develop, we'll be hearing the same excuses. It's already happening from the people on this board who said you don't tank again if you land Wemby.

Where has the FO failed him once, though? Failure implies a different outcome than was expected? Which by all accounts is not true. Every single person knew this was a developmental (aka tanking) season, let Vic do his thing and "see what happens (aka tanking), do some experiments (aka tanking). So where exactly is the failure? Not putting a mid team around him so he can hurt himself gunning for a postseason, or worse, carry us to mediocrity like the Luka Mavs are going through?

And lol, people who didn't even want to tank for Wemby were on board with a second year tank. It's actually wild to see how the tune has changed so quickly. There was a straight up consensus here after the draft, that the Spurs had to do exactly what they're doing right now, tank for the 1B player.

It's not major improvement we're talking about... just ANY improvement. Running back the same team + the greatest prospect in 20 years should yield SOME improvement, not make your team remarkably worse. As stated, multiple times, a lot of us would be fine with a poor record if it came with clear signs of progress and development, and an evident effort to maximize Wemby's development. Instead, as eloquently stated by other posters, we're setting his rookie season on fire.

Lol, how is Wemby's season "on fire"? He's leading all rookies in most categories and getting visibly better every day? His signs of development are clear. The rest of the team I don't care much about at this point, they're clearly going to be majorly replaced. I do like what I see from Sochan, Devin's hit or miss depending on the match. I find it hard to care about the rest one way or another, so I won't contest this point much.

It's Wemby's team now, so if this team cannot improve next season, it just means more work for the FO to get vets and other youngings on his timeline. But it's a much different picture than it was only two years ago, a different paradigm.

[scott]

Doesn't Wemby have to play a year on a QO for that to be a possibility, though? Again, if the proposition is Wemby going that path, I'll believe it when I see it. Absolutely no reason for it (when again he can simply ask out afterwards) and tons of reasons to sign, from job security to good PR. It's not laissez-faire to say "the Spurs could be bad and the #1 pick will still want to sign his 145 million dollar (or whatever amount) extension", at all, just the reality.

I'll take it even further and say, if Wemby is the type of player to even contemplate ditching the team before his rookie contract is even up -- he's not at all the player we're expecting him to be.



Where has the FO failed him once, though? Failure implies a different outcome than was expected? Which by all accounts is not true. Every single person knew this was a developmental (aka tanking) season, let Vic do his thing and "see what happens (aka tanking), do some experiments (aka tanking). So where exactly is the failure? Not putting a mid team around him so he can hurt himself gunning for a postseason, or worse, carry us to mediocrity like the Luka Mavs are going through?

And lol, people who didn't even want to tank for Wemby were on board with a second year tank. It's actually wild to see how the tune has changed so quickly. There was a straight up consensus here after the draft, that the Spurs had to do exactly what they're doing right now, tank for the 1B player.

The bolded portions of this are a downright revisionist history lie. The consensus was that there was no one worth tanking for in this draft (which remains true) and while the Spurs may not be a playoff contender, they would no longer intentionally tank. Maybe your expectation was that they'd tank again, but that was by far from the consensus. Go back and read the Over/Under thread if you need a reminder.

And NO ONE, and I mean NO ONE expected that the Spurs would drop from a .268 win% team to a .167 win% team by adding Wemby. If you thought that was the expected Outcome, then you are either a 1) clairvoyant genius, in which case good for you 2) a liar. So yes, we have failed, because getting *remarkably worse* is a different outcome than was expected. There are more shades of gray that simply championship/playoff/non-playoff team.

Lol, how is Wemby's season "on fire"? He's leading all rookies in most categories and getting visibly better every day? His signs of development are clear. The rest of the team I don't care much about at this point, they're clearly going to be majorly replaced. I do like what I see from Sochan, Devin's hit or miss depending on the match. I find it hard to care about the rest one way or another, so I won't contest this point much.

It's Wemby's team now, so if this team cannot improve next season, it just means more work for the FO to get vets and other youngings on his timeline. But it's a much different picture than it was only two years ago, a different paradigm.

The bolded section is the laissez faire at ude I'm talking about. Wemby, nor any other player, is some infinite creature who you just say "aw shucks, better luck next time" as you burn year after year of his career lifespan, much like them did with DRob under Red McCombs cheap-ass leadership. That is the point of all of this. You seem willing to just sit back and hope the team's leadership figures this out, while others of us believe that the fanbase and the media who cover the team should make an attempt to hold them accountable. It won't make a difference when it's just some folks on SpursTalk writing posts, but it might start to when fans stop showing up, and those who do show up start booing this team as they trot off the court following yet another 25 point drubbing.

And not caring about the rest of the team because they'll "clearly be majorly replaced" (inferably because they aren't good enough) is also exactly the evidence of a year set on fire. If these guys suck so bad that it's clear they'll all be replaced, then the FO should have done something to get players who have a chance to develop into something useful. None of these others guys are rookies, we shouldn't have needed to see them suck alongside Wemby to evaluate how much they suck.

[Pauleta14]

No one expected PATFO included Wemby to be so impactful so quick, most of us thought he woudn't play more than 25min/game.

But once u realise u were wrong you can't keep the same plan, u need to adapt

[Tyronn Lue]

What's the scenario, the outcome, where Pop isn't a genius? If the Spurs improved and just barely missed the playoffs, Pop is a wonderful coach who improved so much over last season. If he totally blows it, Pop has a long term plan. This is basically how religion works, God always answers, sometimes the answer is no.

I agree with Tim Legler that Pop is trying to keep Victor off the radar as much as possible because Pop isn't concerned about his popularity and in fact wants to squash it for now to lower expectations. It's the reasons behind that mindset that's puzzling. Why would you want your generational talent to be hidden under such a ty group of misfits? Even Pop said that people say they've never seen this or that done before Victor, but sure we have, just with a shorter person. That's Pop trying to slow the hype train.

Is that to benefit Victor or to benefit Pop?

[Allan Rowe vs Wade]

Rest of the season needs to be devoted to seeing how players can help Vic. Devin throw those oops. Sochan hit those bounce passes. Blake get the penetration and kick out. Collins rough anyone up who sneezes in his direction. On defense, everyone tcob on the perimeter and get vic his blocks. Anyone who can't be a booster or catalyst for vic, sorry senor

[Dejounte]

I would love to write a longer post on this, but I’m on my phone and too lazy to get on my computer

here goes:

sorry, Sugus but you’re wrong here.

you can’t honestly say this season wasn’t a failure. The whole mantra by the Spurs is they try to develop players. There is no way in none of these players mattered to them before Wemby was drafted— they all believe they have promise to be core players on this team, and development and upward improvement as a team is TOTALLY expected. It is extremely alarming that they have not had a semblance of chemistry at this point in their careers. To you, they might be throwaway players, but these guys have had the Spurs staff put their time and money into doing their best to make them improve. If it was up to the Spurs, they would keep all the guys they invested in but because they are going the Lonnie route, they are going to be forced to shuffle through players until they find a keeper. I’m not even saying that all of the current players have no hope anymore. But failing to acknowledge that they have not met expectations is just overall a bad take. They didn’t go into this season with the plan to tank, and it’s only convenient for you to say that they did because they’re not putting it together. It’s literally straight from the horses’ mouth that they were going to be compe ive and win as much as they can. Do you think, with Pop’s character of being one of the most genuine coaches in basketball, can look into Wemby’s eyes and tell him he’s doing his best to win but actually trying to lose to get more talent? I bet you 100% that it pains Pop that he’s putting Wemby through this disappointing season. It’s a slap in the face to many in the Spurs org who’ve put so much effort into the current group of guys.

[My Fault]

You're a sniffer because I have a low IQ and can only see short term. It's so laughable the amount of people that post on here regularly and throw elementary insults as it makes them superior while having no self awareness of their own stupidity. If they were truly so smart then they would be getting paid millions to spread their so ever so talented basketball knowledge

[Sugus]

I would love to write a longer post on this, but I’m on my phone and too lazy to get on my computer

here goes:

sorry, Sugus but you’re wrong here.

you can’t honestly say this season wasn’t a failure. The whole mantra by the Spurs is they try to develop players. There is no way in none of these players mattered to them before Wemby was drafted— they all believe they have promise to be core players on this team, and development and upward improvement as a team is TOTALLY expected. It is extremely alarming that they have not had a semblance of chemistry at this point in their careers. To you, they might be throwaway players, but these guys have had the Spurs staff put their time and money into doing their best to make them improve. If it was up to the Spurs, they would keep all the guys they invested in but because they are going the Lonnie route, they are going to be forced to shuffle through players until they find a keeper. I’m not even saying that all of the current players have no hope anymore. But failing to acknowledge that they have not met expectations is just overall a bad take. They didn’t go into this season with the plan to tank, and it’s only convenient for you to say that they did because they’re not putting it together. It’s literally straight from the horses’ mouth that they were going to be compe ive and win as much as they can. Do you think, with Pop’s character of being one of the most genuine coaches in basketball, can look into Wemby’s eyes and tell him he’s doing his best to win but actually trying to lose to get more talent? I bet you 100% that it pains Pop that he’s putting Wemby through this disappointing season. It’s a slap in the face to many in the Spurs org who’ve put so much effort into the current group of guys.

I understand your point, but disagree with the premise; the non-Wemby players can fail to develop, and the season still can be not-a-failure. So long as Wemby gets through it without major injury and keeps his game at top level and keeps developing it, it is at least partly a success.

I don't wish any of these guys bad or something, but the plan and perspective simply changed the moment Wemby got to the team. I'm not crying a river if Branham never gets to be a rotation level player, or if Sochan never works out in the end, sorry. I don't expect everyone to agree with this but it's pretty clearly the reality, and a majority of the current team won't be here when we're relevant again. There's bigger fish to fry now.

Lastly, dramatic "slap to the face" or not, the team is objectively better tanking the season out than not, and current hurt feelings aside, the benefits will be felt in the long run. I don't for a second believe the stupid "no one to tank for this draft" and entirely think the Spurs walk out of it with a very serviceable player, hopefully a true #2. And you build from there, from the ground up.

Oh wait, actual lastly - the horse's mouth can say all that it wants, but please point me to whatever moves the Spurs pulled on the roster to actually win games? Contrary to what was said (which I know), the fact is that they trotted out much the same team that got squashed en route to the #1 pick.... And they're getting squashed again, all right.

[Sugus]

It's funny, the more down the board is on the Spurs, the more bullish I become on them. I really think people underestimate the long-term outlook of the team and will be shocked to see what a PG'ed, fat-cut, revamped Spurs team with Wemby at the helm will do. Just not right now, which is understandably terrible to see.

[Dejounte]

I understand your point, but disagree with the premise; the non-Wemby players can fail to develop, and the season still can be not-a-failure. So long as Wemby gets through it without major injury and keeps his game at top level and keeps developing it, it is at least partly a success.

I don't wish any of these guys bad or something, but the plan and perspective simply changed the moment Wemby got to the team. I'm not crying a river if Branham never gets to be a rotation level player, or if Sochan never works out in the end, sorry. I don't expect everyone to agree with this but it's pretty clearly the reality, and a majority of the current team won't be here when we're relevant again. There's bigger fish to fry now.

Lastly, dramatic "slap to the face" or not, the team is objectively better tanking the season out than not, and current hurt feelings aside, the benefits will be felt in the long run. I don't for a second believe the stupid "no one to tank for this draft" and entirely think the Spurs walk out of it with a very serviceable player, hopefully a true #2. And you build from there, from the ground up.

Oh wait, actual lastly - the horse's mouth can say all that it wants, but please point me to whatever moves the Spurs pulled on the roster to actually win games? Contrary to what was said (which I know), the fact is that they trotted out much the same team that got squashed en route to the #1 pick.... And they're getting squashed again, all right.

Yikes, man. You’re still not getting my point… driving right now and will write my post later. You’re still very clearly thinking the Spurs’ plan and view of their existing players is to detach from them easily when everything the Spurs are and have been suggests continuity and development. You’re projecting so much on the Spurs of your sudden Morey-like approach to these players just because of landing one player. I think you’ve forgotten what team you’re rooting for…

[Dejounte]

The team that is known to plan ahead and all the years prior where we had young ins with vets to instill knowledge into them, like DeMar, Mills, Gay, etc,.. it’s foolish to think that they weren’t making an attempt to have the surrounding cast already in place for when they landed a player like Wemby. And that all of a sudden they are going to try to. THAT is where the failure is. The 3-5 years before Wemby was preparation time and it’s not looking good. To say the plan and perspective shifted when we got Wemby is naive, man.

[scott]

It is possible for us to experience short-term (this season) failure while still being able to achieve long-term success. Long term, the goal is to win a championship of course. That doesn't mean anything short of that this season is a failure, obviously.

However, Wemby in his own words laid out his view of a team goal and an individual goal for his rookie season, as quoted in my signature. For those who have sigs disabled (like me), here it is:

"Having a better record for my team than last year," Wembanyama said on ESPN when asked what would cons ute success in his rookie year. "I’ve been looking into all the data of the past No. 1 picks, and what impact they've had. I'm trying to be better than every guy before me."

Clearly, we are failing on achieving both the team goal and his individual goal in his rookie season. Whether his vision of the short term goal for the team and the FO's (or the rest of the team) vision align with that, we don't know. However, judging by Pop's public statements before the season, I feel comfortable assuming that being worse this season than last season was not the goal coming into this year.

It's easy to say you simply don't care about short-term goals... okay, that's your thing... but typically when you fail at your short-term goals, it makes reaching your long-term goals even harder (unless your short-term goals were misplaced to begin with. If you want to make that argument, that's okay... I disagree but that's just individual prerogative.)

Dejounte does make a great point about how the Spurs have well positioned themselves to be able to respond to short-term failure though. We'll just have to see if they eventually do it, or they just choose to shift the entire timeline back (which is the "wasting Wemby's career" concerns that many on this board have).

[The Truth #6]

Just my interpretation, but with the FO's approach to "see what they have" this season, I took that as focusing on development with the hope of winning but not the intention of tanking. Initially I was on board with trying Sochan at point guard hoping it would push him forward, but it turned out to be a massive overstep. It's weird. The team doesn't want to fast track with trades but are ok doing so my forcing Jeremy as a starting point guard, not even as back up. The haters hate everything so hard for me to take many sincerely. For me, I gave the idea time and Pop had to pull the plug. At this point it's hard to say it helped Sochan. Maybe down the road. But it sabotaged the season. Either that, or everyone is having a hard time playing next to an awesome player.

I'm ok with having VW realize on his own that he needs to play center, but not sure how Sochan as point guard was part of that equation.

In the end, Pop took some weird gambles, and by playing Sochan and now Branham out of position it's hard to "see what we have". Just a lot of weird choices that have been discussed to death.

To be clear, I don't see this as tanking. Just miscalculation. It can still work out. Keldon and Devin improved their skills over the summer. But Branham and Jeremy were the ones to take a look at, in my opinion, being in their second year, but their roles are bad, not the fact that we drafted them. The Spurs were great at developing players before but I think they are average now.

Anyway. Just rambling.

[tbdog]

I for one was intrigued at Sochan playing point and believed it needed 20 games to really test out. Pop did that. It didn't work and moved away. But I'm disappointed that Brehnam is kinda in that position now. Although I think the Spurs are still playing Sochan as a co pg. There is such a big hole in this position for this team that we are going this route. Worst of all is our defence. I just can't concede that original stating 5 couldn't be 18 to 23 on defense. That to me smells of team instructions.

Spurs won't win many games with Champagnie and Branham starting. That's 4 starters that are raw and they don't in particular fit well together either. I for one liked Collins starting if we had reliable backups, in which appears we don't. But that pg hole is such a killer, and starting Jones or Graham seems like the most obvious, cheapest solution.

I'm all for development and trying things, like Sochan at point. Although it should have been done with short bursts or for covering injuries, rather than defaulting. Spurs/Wright really balls up creating a team with roles. A trade should have occurred in the off season to bring in a point. Or heck, just don't waive Payne.

[spurraider21]

cia pop making sure wemby doesn’t qualify for the mega rookie extension

[spurraider21]

[spurraider21]

[RC_Drunkford]

wow, it only took the genius 33 games to find out that he should start a PG at PG. He's the GOAT no doubt.

I guess we'll win a lot more games from now on.

[Extra Stout]

Good to see that it only takes a Hall of Fame coach two months to figure out what every casual fan already saw. He’s definitely trying to win and not just tanking up to the point of plausible deniability or open player revolt.

[spurraider21]

dont act like pop saw the light. only reason Tre is starting is that branham is out

[Seventyniner]

wow, it only took the genius 33 games to find out that he should start a PG at PG. He's the GOAT no doubt.

I guess we'll win a lot more games from now on.

It only took ending the Sochan experiment and Branham being injured.

I was going to post a picture of Leslie Nielsen writing PALN on a chalkboard (he said "We need a P-L-A-N plan!") and I can't find it for the life of me. I don't even remember which movie it was.

[scott]

[spurraider21]