The Olde Town Pub of Dominick Barlow

[spurraider21]

It's not hate. It's looking at him and realizing he's 6-8 and can only play one position. His advanced stats look good, but his best year was in Philly before they cut him. He out-statted everyone on the team that wasn't Embiid, but Philly still chose to play other guys ahead of him and to keep Paul Reed on a long-term deal because he's not actually a winning player. He's sort like Matt Bonner but worse. His stats more demonstrate the value of his archetype (energy big, rim-runner, vertical spacer) for what the Spurs need than his actual impact.

That doesn't mean he literally sucks at playing basketball. But he can't go where the Spurs need to go. For me, it'd be far more understandable for Champ to continue to start at the three next year than it would for Bassey to be in the rotation. Champ has size and is one of the better defenders on the team. He just needs to hit his shots, and he's fine for a three-and-D fifth option, which is where you'd hope he'd be if the Spurs bring in a guy like Young, Garland or Mitc while keeping Vassell. He's not great, but he's cheap and can hold the fort down while the team finds his replacement in the draft or from a ring-chaser. Bassey on the other hand, is already playing on a team that has equivalent options but who have better size and can space the floor, and center is a position where good guys are available for the min or room exception every year. No matter how the Spurs play their off-season, they should have a way to get a better option than Bassey.

Fwiw he was listed at 6’11 during this years camp

[scott]

It's not hate. It's looking at him and realizing he's 6-8 and can only play one position. His advanced stats look good, but his best year was in Philly before they cut him. He out-statted everyone on the team that wasn't Embiid, but Philly still chose to play other guys ahead of him and to keep Paul Reed on a long-term deal because he's not actually a winning player. He's sort like Matt Bonner but worse. His stats more demonstrate the value of his archetype (energy big, rim-runner, vertical spacer) for what the Spurs need than his actual impact.

That doesn't mean he literally sucks at playing basketball. But he can't go where the Spurs need to go. For me, it'd be far more understandable for Champ to continue to start at the three next year than it would for Bassey to be in the rotation. Champ has size and is one of the better defenders on the team. He just needs to hit his shots, and he's fine for a three-and-D fifth option, which is where you'd hope he'd be if the Spurs bring in a guy like Young, Garland or Mitc while keeping Vassell. He's not great, but he's cheap and can hold the fort down while the team finds his replacement in the draft or from a ring-chaser. Bassey on the other hand, is already playing on a team that has equivalent options but who have better size and can space the floor, and center is a position where good guys are available for the min or room exception every year. No matter how the Spurs play their off-season, they should have a way to get a better option than Bassey.

The ideas that there are Charles Bassey’s available for cheap available all over the place overlooks that his DREB% and BLK% number that I once again remind everyone, are elite. Not just good. Elite. As in top-10 in the league. There aren’t better options at these dimensions, which should be of high priority to the Spurs, especially as their rotations are constructed.

Your Champ example is fascinating, as it relies on the one thing he’s not been capable of (“he just needs to hit his shots” - maybe he just isn’t that good of a shooter, after all?). You’re also giving him credit for his defensive prowess relative to his teammates who are poor defenders (world’s tallest dwarf), while discounting the objective defensive ability of another.

And I wouldn’t read too much into Doc Rivers’ development choices while in Philly, even Sixers fans would tell you that.

[scott]

On a team of net negative players, it is odd to me that one of our few consistently net positive players are considered easily replaceable.

[Mr. Body]

The ideas that there are Charles Bassey’s available for cheap available all over the place overlooks that his DREB% and BLK% number that I once again remind everyone, are elite. Not just good. Elite. As in top-10 in the league. There aren’t better options at these dimensions, which should be of high priority to the Spurs, especially as their rotations are constructed.

Your Champ example is fascinating, as it relies on the one thing he’s not been capable of (“he just needs to hit his shots” - maybe he just isn’t that good of a shooter, after all?). You’re also giving him credit for his defensive prowess relative to his teammates who are poor defenders (world’s tallest dwarf), while discounting the objective defensive ability of another.

And I wouldn’t read too much into Doc Rivers’ development choices while in Philly, even Sixers fans would tell you that.

Yeah, Phila made some cuts because of Rivers' choices and player logjam. It's too bad Bassey keeps getting hurt. If that continues, it's an issue, but this team badly needs beef. Collins is tall but slight of build and can't hang with some of the bigger guys in the league. I've really loved what we've seen from Bassey in his games last year.

Chinook has good takes, but I believe he was top advocate for cutting Blake Wesley to keep Cam Payne. He was insistent we had to cut him at the end of the summer. He's doing the same with Bassey.

[spurraider21]

Yeah, Phila made some cuts because of Rivers' choices and player logjam. It's too bad Bassey keeps getting hurt. If that continues, it's an issue, but this team badly needs beef. Collins is tall but slight of build and can't hang with some of the bigger guys in the league. I've really loved what we've seen from Bassey in his games last year.

Chinook has good takes, but I believe he was top advocate for cutting Blake Wesley to keep Cam Payne. He was insistent we had to cut him at the end of the summer. He's doing the same with Bassey.

He didn’t advocate for that. He (and i) were just saying it’s in the range out outcomes, not that it was likely or preferential

[RC_Drunkford]

Chinook also said the corpse of Pau Gasol was better than Jakob Poeltl and that Keldon Johnson is a Power Forward, what else is new?

Bassey can certainly develop into a good back up big. Players of his archetype generally have great advanced stats and can have great impact in a minor role. He does seem a little too short though, but we don't have a lot of film on Bassey due to his injuries.

[Chinook]

The ideas that there are Charles Bassey’s available for cheap available all over the place overlooks that his DREB% and BLK% number that I once again remind everyone, are elite. Not just good. Elite. As in top-10 in the league. There aren’t better options at these dimensions, which should be of high priority to the Spurs, especially as their rotations are constructed.

Your Champ example is fascinating, as it relies on the one thing he’s not been capable of (“he just needs to hit his shots” - maybe he just isn’t that good of a shooter, after all?). You’re also giving him credit for his defensive prowess relative to his teammates who are poor defenders (world’s tallest dwarf), while discounting the objective defensive ability of another.

And I wouldn’t read too much into Doc Rivers’ development choices while in Philly, even Sixers fans would tell you that.

Bassey's actual DFG differential this year was -1.1. To put that into perspective, Mamu's is -1.9. It's not bad, but it's not great for a defensive center. So completely accepting that he blocks a high percentage of shots, teams didn't have a particularly hard time scoring on him. But that same token, Champ's 2.8 rating in that stat would score highly for his position, like third in the league for wings or guards. However, it seems BBRef excludes small sample sizes, which you probably saw yourself with Bassey. Dude ranks 16th in BLK%, though you can see a lot of people ahead of and around him who are scrub bigs with only a few minutes. That's even more true for DREB%, where Bass is actually 27th.

Champ is inconsistent, and he shouldn't be starting. But he's also large for his size and has shot decently most of the year until last month. Could I see the team just not getting around to finding a better solution with so many big questions to answer? Yes. Wings who can defend and have shooting upside tend to always be in high demand, but growing them yourself is tricky. Centers who can actually play the position are swimming around the league right now. It's a devalued position, but the number of humans who fit the bill hasn't decreased. The Spurs shouldn't be in the position they are with a $17-Million albatross and two former two-ways.

I'm not a Doc lover either, but I think it also makes sense to realize teams that realize guys are right more often than wrong.

[Chinook]

Chinook also said the corpse of Pau Gasol was better than Jakob Poeltl and that Keldon Johnson is a Power Forward, what else is new?

Bassey can certainly develop into a good back up big. Players of his archetype generally have great advanced stats and can have great impact in a minor role. He does seem a little too short though, but we don't have a lot of film on Bassey due to his injuries.

You had the horrible argument that a player can't be a PF unless they also play center then hid when Keldon actually did play center later that year. Instead of bragging about it, the fact that Keldon's been worse since he moved should give you pause.

Also, 17/18 Gasol was about the same level of player as Poeltl this year:
https://stathead.com/basketball/vers...24&p2yrto=2024

You really have a habit of saying without even checking to see if it makes sense.

[Chinook]

Chinook has good takes, but I believe he was top advocate for cutting Blake Wesley to keep Cam Payne. He was insistent we had to cut him at the end of the summer. He's doing the same with Bassey.

First, I was "doing the same" with Bassey last year as well. The argument wasn't over whether the team should cut Wesley. It was whether they should be open to the possibility or if they should have him on the 15 without any compe ion. I admit I was wrong in that I assumed they would at least try to let guys compete for jobs, and they basically cut everyone immediately. However, I don't think that lack of exploration was a good thing for the front office. A lot of posters who call me a sniffer now don't remember, but I was very much of the mind that the team should try to win games this year. I didn't want them to make a huge trade, but I definitely didn't want them to run back the same roster without vets. That I support them getting a high pick at this point doesn't mean I was on board for this zero-accountability scrubshow we've seen so far.

[RC_Drunkford]

You had the horrible argument that a player can't be a PF unless they also play center then hid when Keldon actually did play center later that year. Instead of bragging about it, the fact that Keldon's been worse since he moved should give you pause.

Also, 17/18 Gasol was about the same level of player as Poeltl this year:
https://stathead.com/basketball/vers...24&p2yrto=2024

You really have a habit of saying without even checking to see if it makes sense.

when the did Keldon Johnson play Center? Keldon is a SF weather you like it or not. You still thinking he's a big man doesn't change anything.

Pau Gasol was falling off a cliff that year and everybody saw it. Pop just had to wait til he broke his foot to find out, cause it's Pop.

I don't hide, I just don't have the time to write essays like you do. I got money to get. 9 times out of 10 I don't even have time to read your long ass posts.

[Chinook]

when the did Keldon Johnson play Center? Keldon is a SF weather you like it or not.

Instead if trying to find the emoji, you could just look at his stats to check. It's right there on his main profile on BBRef.

Pau Gasol was falling off a cliff that year and everybody saw it. Pop just had to wait til he broke his foot to find out, cause it's Pop.

His last injury destroyed him, just like Tim. We don't disagree there. But Pau his last healthy season was a better player than Poeltl's ever been. That's not a knock on Jakob. Pau's a HoFer for a reason.

I don't hide, I just don't have the time to write essays like you do. I got money to get.

Why would you brag about not having time to see if you post things that are right or wrong? You made an incredibly careless condition for what "being a PF" meant. Then that condition got met, and you were gonzo. So even ignoring that my argument was Keldon's physical limitations meant he was better as a short PF than as a slow wing (which the numbers have born out), you can't even be bothered to remember what you said and then to look to see if it was right or not. Make your money, man. But don't come back here pretending you have receipts. I am wrong plenty (I've even been wrong about being wrong about stuff like with Collins), but not about this particular .

[Dejounte]

As someone who has watched nearly every Spurs game… Keldon has never purposely been put in a lineup as a center, or if he did, it was purely situational. Bbref isnt the end-all, be-all truth. If gets affected by many variables, and is driven by the underlying data, i.e., if someone in the lineup has the pf designator assigned to them— it probably chooses between that player and Keldon as the defacto center.

[RC_Drunkford]

Instead if trying to find the emoji, you could just look at his stats to check. It's right there on his main profile on BBRef.



His last injury destroyed him, just like Tim. We don't disagree there. But Pau his last healthy season was a better player than Poeltl's ever been. That's not a knock on Jakob. Pau's a HoFer for a reason.



Why would you brag about not having time to see if you post things that are right or wrong? You made an incredibly careless condition for what "being a PF" meant. Then that condition got met, and you were gonzo. So even ignoring that my argument was Keldon's physical limitations meant he was better as a short PF than as a slow wing (which the numbers have born out), you can't even be bothered to remember what you said and then to look to see if it was right or not. Make your money, man. But don't come back here pretending you have receipts. I am wrong plenty (I've even been wrong about being wrong about stuff like with Collins), but not about this particular .

we weren't talking about Pau the season before, we were talking about him for that particular season up until he broke his foot. Poeltl outplayed him that season to the point where Pop played Gasol and Poeltl similar minutes to fight for the back up spot until Pau got injured and Poeltl got it.

I don't know where you can look up which position the player played for each game on bballref. I don't know about the functions of the site like that. But it says he played SF for his entire career. He played SF this year. He played SF last year when he started and Sochan played PF. For 21/22 according to bballref McBuckets played PF, although you could say that Keldon played it when you watched the games. Same goes when he started next to DeRozan. That likely depends on your interpretation, but basically the Spurs just started 2 SFs cause they didn't have a real PF. That doesn't mean that's Keldon's natural position. You could say the same bout the Boston Celtics with Tatum and Brown or PG 13 and nephew on the Flippers.

Keldon had his best season last season where he played SF next to Sochan at PF, so the numbers don't really support your argument.

[Chinook]

we weren't talking about Pau the season before, we were talking about him for that particular season up until he broke his foot.

You mean the Pau who averaged 14/12/7 and two blockers per 36 while shooting 58 percent from three? That is what he did in the nine games before he got injured that year. Jakob averaged 12/11/3 with about two blocks per 36. It's hard to parse out advanced stats because they don't separate for certain chunks of games, but even with that, 18/19 Poeltl and 18/19 Spurs Gasol were about the same. There wasn't actually a massive statistical difference between them. The reason why it seems obvious that everyone wanted Pau is because the ST battle that year was over young players versus vets, and guys like Mills and Gasol and to a lesser extent LMA, DMDR and Gay were being on. It's sort of how Vassell is constantly on this year despite him being the second-best player on a good contract and who's shown some legit improvement in a critical area. The meme wars create false impressions.

I don't know where you can look up which position the player played for each game on bballref.

It says he was classified as a small-forward his whole career. You just have to scroll down to the play-by-play section, and it'll give things like on/off, foul type and position play percentage. BBallRef tends to go by height, which is why they assume McDermott played that position when he was more of a wing shooter than anything else. If you do go to look it up, you'll see 21/22 Johnson played 56 percent of his minutes at PF that year. While Johnson's counting stats got better post Murray, his impact stats got worse as he moved to a position where he couldn't hang defensively and against players he didn't have an agility advantage over.

That doesn't mean that's Keldon's natural position.

I don't try to get too much into "natural position" since that has no real definition. PF was the position Keldon played best at though. It's better to be short for a front court position than slow for a perimeter position. It's not ideal, which is why Keldon was never going to make it as a starter. But he did more damage driving past slower PFs than he does trying to drive through smaller SFs.

[JeffDuncan]

As someone who has watched nearly every Spurs game… Keldon has never purposely been put in a lineup as a center, or if he did, it was purely situational. Bbref isnt the end-all, be-all truth. If gets affected by many variables, and is driven by the underlying data, i.e., if someone in the lineup has the pf designator assigned to them— it probably chooses between that player and Keldon as the defacto center.

I recall a game where Keldon played center for a few minutes in garbage time. It was a couple years ago, 2021-22 I guess, Keldon’s best year for shooting 3s.

Poeltl had either fouled out or was simply through for the day. Zollins was still on medical. Eubanks, don’t recall. Could be that Eubanks was just being himself and had ended up in the doghouse. Whatever.

They ran some action where Keldon, at center, passed to Tre Jones in the corner for a corner 3 attempt. Tre missed.

The reason why I remember it:

Keldon shot .484 from the corner that year. Jones shot .217. That’s about what their percentages were at the time.

They were having the player who was red hot from 3 pass to a player who was ice cold to try the shot.

It was such perfectly typical bass ackwards Spurs stupidity. Truly iconic. That imprinted it on my memory, about them using Keldon as the center.

[scott]

Bassey's actual DFG differential this year was -1.1. To put that into perspective, Mamu's is -1.9. It's not bad, but it's not great for a defensive center. So completely accepting that he blocks a high percentage of shots, teams didn't have a particularly hard time scoring on him. But that same token, Champ's 2.8 rating in that stat would score highly for his position, like third in the league for wings or guards. However, it seems BBRef excludes small sample sizes, which you probably saw yourself with Bassey. Dude ranks 16th in BLK%, though you can see a lot of people ahead of and around him who are scrub bigs with only a few minutes. That's even more true for DREB%, where Bass is actually 27th.

Champ is inconsistent, and he shouldn't be starting. But he's also large for his size and has shot decently most of the year until last month. Could I see the team just not getting around to finding a better solution with so many big questions to answer? Yes. Wings who can defend and have shooting upside tend to always be in high demand, but growing them yourself is tricky. Centers who can actually play the position are swimming around the league right now. It's a devalued position, but the number of humans who fit the bill hasn't decreased. The Spurs shouldn't be in the position they are with a $17-Million albatross and two former two-ways.

I'm not a Doc lover either, but I think it also makes sense to realize teams that realize guys are right more often than wrong.

My guy, you're arguing that you place a higher priority on replacing our 3rd string center (who is actually productive and has been a net positive player his entire career and shows elite numbers in a couple of categories) than you do replacing our starting SF, who is hardly a rotation-level player in the NBA. Let's take a reality check for a second.

And in regard to what BBref says about positional minutes... it says that Sochan has played 0 minutes at PG this season, despite all of us having to live through it for 20 games... so maybe this isn't one of BBref's more accurate stats.
RC_Drunkford - you can find the positional estimates on the team page of BBref if you scroll down to "Play-by-Play", but as I mentioned, I would give roughly zero credibility to this, since it thinks Blake Wesley has played more SF this season than Jeremy has played PG. https://www.basketball-reference.com.../SAS/2024.html

[Chinook]

My guy, you're arguing that you place a higher priority on replacing our 3rd string center (who is actually productive and has been a net positive player his entire career and shows elite numbers in a couple of categories) than you do replacing our starting SF, who is hardly a rotation-level player in the NBA. Let's take a reality check for a second.

A couple of things. First go back and read what I wrote. I wasn't talking about Bassey as a third-string center. I specifically was talking about him being in the rotation. I'm going to chalk it up to you being a person who believes being third string is technical in the rotation as a deep bench guy. Assuming that, we meant different things, and I hope this serves as clarification in that regard. I will always only be referring to first and second string when I speak about being in the rotation, at least until the Spurs go to something like an 11-man rotation.

Second, Bassey hasn't always been positive. For example, he was horrendously negative in Philly, which is the big reason why he got cut rather than Doc just being incompetent. He wasn't even positive this year in terms of on/offs, though I'm not sure if "off" numbers continue to count games after a player is injured. If that's the case, they're capturing the Spurs performing better over the past couple of months, which means we can't tell by those numbers if Bassey was positive or negative when he was actually playing.

Third, I've said many times why I think Champ might stay in that spot. I didn't say I place it as a higher priority -- I said "For me, it'd be far more understandable for Champ to continue to start at the three next year than it would for Bassey to be in the rotation." Then I explained why I thought that would be the case (mainly because starting SF wasn't a major priority compared to PG, the compe ion for competent rotational wings and the relative abundance of rotational centers). The comment which sparked your response was me saying that I don't want both Barlow and Bassey on the team next year. That's because I want the Spurs to make back-up center a priority if they move Collins and because if they don't move him, Zach's going to have that spot. I don't want to see the Spurs spend four roster spots on centers, especially without one of them being a real draft pick. I see the roster fringe the way a lot of you guys see the rotation -- the Spurs need to aggressively look to upgrade it. While I think they should look to sign free agents and make trades to upgrade their rotation, the sheer number of picks that they have mean they shouldn't hold 9th-15th men as sacred.

Bassey is 6-9.25 ( @spurraider21 that's what his official combine measurements say) -- that's just a quarter-inch taller than Mamu. That lack of size has been apparent on the court, where he basically chases blocks using his good athleticism but has to jump aggressively to do so, which is why he's not particularly effective defensively.

And in regard to what BBref says about positional minutes... it says that Sochan has played 0 minutes at PG this season, despite all of us having to live through it for 20 games... so maybe this isn't one of BBref's more accurate stats.
RC_Drunkford - you can find the positional estimates on the team page of BBref if you scroll down to "Play-by-Play", but as I mentioned, I would give roughly zero credibility to this, since it thinks Blake Wesley has played more SF this season than Jeremy has played PG. https://www.basketball-reference.com.../SAS/2024.html

I actually did already say this in an earlier post, but it's good you also put it in here. As I said there, BBRef tends to go by height. That can matter for Sochan at PG. It matters less for Keldon at center, because there isn't a "real center" who would've been on the floor but who was shorter than Johnson. The team doesn't have a Chuck Hayes. Keldon played that position in two games that year. I want to say it was back to back outtings. I feel like one was against NOP where he played it to match up with Zion. The only reason why it's notable is because it was within a week or so of RCD claiming that was the standard for why Keldon couldn't possible be a PF (despite him playing the position the entire year). It was a funny relic of the past, but RCD pulled the receipt out, which is the only reason why we're even talking about it.

[Chinook]

Fwiw he was listed at 6’11 during this years camp

I tried to tag you in a reply, but Bassey was officially measured at 6-9.25 at the combine. So taller than I remember (probably thought that was his w/shoes height), but still short. Like he's basically the same height as Manu and a half-inch taller than Barlow. That they're both shorter than you'd like an low-level prospects is why I want the Spurs to take the position more seriously this summer. The center who plays non-Wemby minutes is going to be increasingly important to not giving up the momentum that Wemby gives the team. Also, it would be nice to have a center who can play next to him when the Spurs go up against bigger teams or top centers that might be better guarded by someone else so Wemby can roam.

[scott]

A couple of things. First go back and read what I wrote. I wasn't talking about Bassey as a third-string center. I specifically was talking about him being in the rotation. I'm going to chalk it up to you being a person who believes being third string is technical in the rotation as a deep bench guy. Assuming that, we meant different things, and I hope this serves as clarification in that regard. I will always only be referring to first and second string when I speak about being in the rotation, at least until the Spurs go to something like an 11-man rotation.

The original context was the concept of Barlow being behind Collins and Bassey in the pecking order, to which you replied he isn't behind Bassey because Bassey isn't good (and also that he's injured, which is very valid and concerning as I already agreed with).

I considered Bassey the 3rd string center this year, and was getting minutes. Maybe that is when Wemby was at PF and Bassey was backup C? Either way, I'd still take Bassey at backup C over Collins.

Second, Bassey hasn't always been positive. For example, he was horrendously negative in Philly, which is the big reason why he got cut rather than Doc just being incompetent. He wasn't even positive this year in terms of on/offs, though I'm not sure if "off" numbers continue to count games after a player is injured. If that's the case, they're capturing the Spurs performing better over the past couple of months, which means we can't tell by those numbers if Bassey was positive or negative when he was actually playing.

Sorry for the confusion, when I say "Net Positive Player" or "Net Negative Player" I'm talking about NetRtg. Bassey has had a positive NetRtg throughout his career, and actually has the highest NetRtg on the team this year. If you want to go by BPM (which I also think is a perfectly fine all-around measurement), Bassey is one of 3 players on the team with a positive BPM (I'm excluding Diakite).

Third, I've said many times why I think Champ might stay in that spot. I didn't say I place it as a higher priority -- I said "For me, it'd be far more understandable for Champ to continue to start at the three next year than it would for Bassey to be in the rotation." Then I explained why I thought that would be the case (mainly because starting SF wasn't a major priority compared to PG, the compe ion for competent rotational wings and the relative abundance of rotational centers).

Thanks for the clarification. Still an absurd position to take IMO, but I could also be wrong.

The comment which sparked your response was me saying that I don't want both Barlow and Bassey on the team next year. That's because I want the Spurs to make back-up center a priority if they move Collins and because if they don't move him, Zach's going to have that spot. I don't want to see the Spurs spend four roster spots on centers, especially without one of them being a real draft pick. I see the roster fringe the way a lot of you guys see the rotation -- the Spurs need to aggressively look to upgrade it. While I think they should look to sign free agents and make trades to upgrade their rotation, the sheer number of picks that they have mean they shouldn't hold 9th-15th men as sacred.

Bassey is 6-9.25 ( @

spurraider21 that's what his official combine measurements say) -- that's just a quarter-inch taller than Mamu. That lack of size has been apparent on the court, where he basically chases blocks using his good athleticism but has to jump aggressively to do so, which is why he's not particularly effective defensively.

The comment that sparked my initial response was you saying that Bassey wasn't very good. A position you've been consistent on for going on two years, so I commend you for that, but there is plenty of evidence you're just wrong. But, they're all just opinions.

I actually did already say this in an earlier post, but it's good you also put it in here. As I said there, BBRef tends to go by height. That can matter for Sochan at PG. It matters less for Keldon at center, because there isn't a "real center" who would've been on the floor but who was shorter than Johnson. The team doesn't have a Chuck Hayes. Keldon played that position in two games that year. I want to say it was back to back outtings. I feel like one was against NOP where he played it to match up with Zion. The only reason why it's notable is because it was within a week or so of RCD claiming that was the standard for why Keldon couldn't possible be a PF (despite him playing the position the entire year). It was a funny relic of the past, but RCD pulled the receipt out, which is the only reason why we're even talking about it.

I have no opinion o the Keldon at C conversation, I just wanted to point out that BBref should not be relied upon for positional estimates (which come up in other threads as well). I've actually been waiting on the right time to share this since I noticed they have Sochan listed at 0 PG minutes.

[scott]

I tried to tag you in a reply, but Bassey was officially measured at 6-9.25 at the combine. So taller than I remember (probably thought that was his w/shoes height), but still short. Like he's basically the same height as Manu and a half-inch taller than Barlow. That they're both shorter than you'd like an low-level prospects is why I want the Spurs to take the position more seriously this summer. The center who plays non-Wemby minutes is going to be increasingly important to not giving up the momentum that Wemby gives the team. Also, it would be nice to have a center who can play next to him when the Spurs go up against bigger teams or top centers that might be better guarded by someone else so Wemby can roam.

Just curious... what does it matter? Bassey already consistently posts elite DREB% and BLK% numbers... what does it matter if he is 6'9" or 6'11"? The rebounds and blocks don't count any differently.

Wemby and Bassey put in a decent amount of time on the court together, 61 minutes, before Bassey's injury. Their most common lineup only played 16 minutes over 6 games. Not surprisingly, the Spurs saw significant improvement versus the their season average in DRTG (+4.0) but the ORTG suffered (-6.6). Also not surprisingly, big increase in OREB% (+5.4), DREB% (+6.7) and TREB (+5.8).

I was quite surprised, and recall quite a few other posters in game threads calling for Bassey to replace Collins against bigger C's who took Collins to the woodshop. Little did we know at the time that EVERY opposing C takes Collins there, not just the bigger ones.

[Chinook]

Just curious... what does it matter? Bassey already consistently posts elite DREB% and BLK% numbers... what does it matter if he is 6'9" or 6'11"? The rebounds and blocks don't count any differently.

So we talked about how his numbers aren't elite already. He didn't play enough minutes to factor into the rankings, and when you remove that filer, he drops down quite a bit (thought instead of 16th and 27th, it was 14th and 24th I think ties played a role in that). Last year, he was 22nd and 31st in the stat. His rookie season he was 4th in BLK% but 43rd in DREB%. He is productive, which is why he has a net rating that's so far off his on/off numbers. Those rating stats traditionally are box-score derived like BPM, and they mean what they mean, but typically when I hear folks talking about net positive, it usually refers to positive for the team to have them, and ORtg and DRtg are not team stats. You can look at a stat like RAPTOR from last year and see Bass wasn't a net positive player. LEBRON has Bassey as very good both last and this year, full disclosure, but I have no idea how that stat is complicated and what type of sample it needs.

Here's that stat if anyone wants to look at it: https://www.bball-index.com/lebron-database/

To me, it matters far more that Bassey isn't that effective of a rim protector despite his block numbers. Yes, he's better than Collins, but Zach's going to be in the rotation if he's on the team and if he's not the Spurs need to take the opportunity to find a legit seven-footer to play that position. They won't find another Victor, but they can absolutely find a productive big with size.

Wemby and Bassey put in a decent amount of time on the court together, 61 minutes, before Bassey's injury. Their most common lineup only played 16 minutes over 6 games. Not surprisingly, the Spurs saw significant improvement versus the their season average in DRTG (+4.0) but the ORTG suffered (-6.6). Also not surprisingly, big increase in OREB% (+5.4), DREB% (+6.7) and TREB (+5.8).

I recall. You may not remember that I was in there saying Bassey should start over Collins. I thought Collins would be better as a single big off the bench (and haven't really been proven right there) and that Bassey's style of play was a better fit for Wemby than a "shooting" big like Collins (that's where the "vertical spacing" phrase some remember me screeching out comes from). I think a center like that would be good for Wemby, which is why I think the team needs to not cheap out on the position and get a real center to fill that role. I do personally think it's a high-priority position, though I'd be okay with them drafting a guy at 33 for now if it means there's a legit compe ion for those roster spots.

[scott]

So we talked about how his numbers aren't elite already. He didn't play enough minutes to factor into the rankings, and when you remove that filer, he drops down quite a bit (thought instead of 16th and 27th, it was 14th and 24th I think ties played a role in that). Last year, he was 22nd and 31st in the stat. His rookie season he was 4th in BLK% but 43rd in DREB%. He is productive, which is why he has a net rating that's so far off his on/off numbers. Those rating stats traditionally are box-score derived like BPM, and they mean what they mean, but typically when I hear folks talking about net positive, it usually refers to positive for the team to have them, and ORtg and DRtg are not team stats. You can look at a stat like RAPTOR from last year and see Bass wasn't a net positive player. LEBRON has Bassey as very good both last and this year, full disclosure, but I have no idea how that stat is complicated and what type of sample it needs.

Here's that stat if anyone wants to look at it: https://www.bball-index.com/lebron-database/

To me, it matters far more that Bassey isn't that effective of a rim protector despite his block numbers. Yes, he's better than Collins, but Zach's going to be in the rotation if he's on the team and if he's not the Spurs need to take the opportunity to find a legit seven-footer to play that position. They won't find another Victor, but they can absolutely find a productive big with size.



I recall. You may not remember that I was in there saying Bassey should start over Collins. I thought Collins would be better as a single big off the bench (and haven't really been proven right there) and that Bassey's style of play was a better fit for Wemby than a "shooting" big like Collins (that's where the "vertical spacing" phrase some remember me screeching out comes from). I think a center like that would be good for Wemby, which is why I think the team needs to not cheap out on the position and get a real center to fill that role. I do personally think it's a high-priority position, though I'd be okay with them drafting a guy at 33 for now if it means there's a legit compe ion for those roster spots.

If we had the ability to magically re-cast our bench big situation, ideally for me I'd have Naz Reid (maybe starting) and Andre Drummond as backup C with Bassey getting some small rotation minutes and being the fill-in for Drummond who probably can't go 82 games. I view Bassey very much as a Drummond-esque player with better shotblocking ability but who needs a lot of work on the offensive end (and just in a team structured environment in general). I think Bassey actually has a little bit of range to his jumper, but I don't even need from him. I just want him to rim project and clean the glass. We've been sorely lacking the latter of late, lots of extra possessions for opponents because we can't rebound.

As for Bassey's numbers - they're elite when extrapolated against an entire season. Yes, you can argue that is not realistic, but it's not the same as just say "he's actually 14th when you remove the minutes filter" because that then includes a bunch of guys who have played like 2 games and less than 5mpg.

If we simply set the games filter to 10: Bassey moves to 10th in DREB% and 9th in BLK%. If we instead set the MPG filter to 8mpg, Bassey moves back up to 10th in DREB% and 8th in BLK%.

If can certainly be debated if this can be extrapolated over increased playing time, but to me this reinforces the signal pretty clearly. In any event, those are two pretty clear areas where we have a young, cheap prospect who isn't just good but excels.

[TD 21]

The center who plays non-Wemby minutes is going to be increasingly important to not giving up the momentum that Wemby gives the team. Also, it would be nice to have a center who can play next to him when the Spurs go up against bigger teams or top centers that might be better guarded by someone else so Wemby can roam.

By god, that's Reid's music . . .

[Chinook]

If we had the ability to magically re-cast our bench big situation, ideally for me I'd have Naz Reid (maybe starting) and Andre Drummond as backup C with Bassey getting some small rotation minutes and being the fill-in for Drummond who probably can't go 82 games. I view Bassey very much as a Drummond-esque player with better shotblocking ability but who needs a lot of work on the offensive end (and just in a team structured environment in general). I think Bassey actually has a little bit of range to his jumper, but I don't even need from him. I just want him to rim project and clean the glass. We've been sorely lacking the latter of late, lots of extra possessions for opponents because we can't rebound.

As for Bassey's numbers - they're elite when extrapolated against an entire season. Yes, you can argue that is not realistic, but it's not the same as just say "he's actually 14th when you remove the minutes filter" because that then includes a bunch of guys who have played like 2 games and less than 5mpg.

If we simply set the games filter to 10: Bassey moves to 10th in DREB% and 9th in BLK%. If we instead set the MPG filter to 8mpg, Bassey moves back up to 10th in DREB% and 8th in BLK%.

If can certainly be debated if this can be extrapolated over increased playing time, but to me this reinforces the signal pretty clearly. In any event, those are two pretty clear areas where we have a young, cheap prospect who isn't just good but excels.

By god, that's Reid's music . . .

That Reid makes less money than Collins is set to next year is certainly a sore point, but at least there wasn't an option to get him since he re-upped with Minny before free agency began.

I think Bassey never playing enough minutes to qualify for season-long stats matters. You agree on the injury part of it, but the play is there too. If a big is productive individually but the team plays better without him that matters. Of course when his starters are Embiid and Wemby, having a negative on/off makes sense. But the dude had a negative on-court rating two of those years too, so it isn't like it's just a product of the teams having great starting centers.

We can definitely agree to disagree on the importance of those stats. I definitely believe that you can't look at BLK% independently from DFG% and on/off. The Spurs did rebound slightly more and block more shots with Bassey on the court this year, but the opponents shot better with Charles on the court and had a better offensive rating (which in this case is a team stat). Last year, Bassey was actually positive in both of these measurements, so that's possibly the Victor effect or maybe the product of Bassey playing more sparingly for huge chunks of last season. The year before, he was awful for the offense, but again with Embiid being the most common player to be on when Bass were off, there's some grace to be given, though the on numbers weren't good.

Looking at all these stats and not just the ones you've placed emphasis on, I do think Bassey has good numbers. I don't think he's been elite or as impactful as you do. If he could stay healthy, he's probably serviceable depth. I probably am harder on him than I should be. But I consider players like him and Wesley to emblematic of the mentality the Spurs need to move away from. I think the team needs a real plan for how to address the center position next year and going forward. I'm not someone who'd think Sarr would be a great get, but other centers in the middle of the first could be. Barlow, Bassey, Wesley, Branham, Cissoko and Champ should have to fight for their spots. That should've been the case this year and wasn't. If that's still the case next year, that to me is a much bigger red flag than any lack of a trade or major signing.

[offset formation]

Great for Barlow, will be curious to see what his deal looks like relative to Bassey (4/10 with the first year being the remainder of last season and this year being guaranteed, no guarantees beyond that) and Champ's (4/12, this year guaranteed only). These are great end of roster deals.

I still think Bassey is the better backup C prospect due to his elite DREB% (would rank 7th in the league if he qualified) and BLK% (would rank 4th in the league if he qualified), but they are different players. In a very limited sample size, Barlow has flashed elite OREB skills though, so I'm excited to see what he does with some extended run. In an ideal world he could be a PF, but I'm not sure if I see it.



Zach has actually played well for his standards the last few games... if he could maintain this for the rest of the year then maybe just maybe he won't be a major negative asset to move (meaning maybe we only have to attach a couple of SRPs to him instead of a FRP)

Bassey needs a year of being healthy and not playing a subservient role when he's on the floor, much like Collins does when he posts up or shoots 3s without fear, like Bassey did playing in Austin as one of the primary players. That's when people will see the beast in this kid. He's a stud. Backup center is perfect for him. Although he still could still play very well off Wemby too, cleaning up the boards, putting missed shots back up, and taking the occasional mid range shot.