Windhorst: Wembanyama Not Thrilled With Where Spurs Are; Doesn't Think Spurs Can Get Away With Slow Build

[Chinook]

i remember him saying three years, at least, to compete for a le in his interview with TP.

https://youtu.be/NbOrb6DloLk?t=406

It'll be three years or five, if not more. The actual difference between Wemby and a guy like Giannis or Jokic is massive right now, even if the stats don't show it. Wemby's window hasn't opened yet, and his supporting cast is not the reason why. That's an internal thing based on his skill, temperament and experience. That process cannot be skipped or even meaningfully accelerated. Pop knows this. Manu knows this. Even Charles Barkley knows this.

The Spurs should absolutely not approach this off-season with a mandate to build a winning team. That's how you become one of those teams that throws a ton of assets and flexibility down the drain. The mandate should be to put the pieces around Wemby for him to continue his development. That should mean the Spurs get better players, and the hope is that it results in a fair bit more wins. But barring something drastic, the team is on Wemby's timeline, and that timeline may not be as far along as Victor himself wants it to be.

That's why Trae Young seems like a particularly bad trade target. He's neither young enough to grow slowly with Victor nor experienced enough to guide him. He's a relatively immature star making a ton of money and who has enough accolades where he seems to not want to adapt his way of playing at all. If their ages were reversed, and Victor were the youngish superstar in his early prime and Young were the rookie fire cracker with unreal production, the match would be amazing. It would be Duncan/Parker 2.0. If you imagine the Spurs had they drafted Tony in 1997 and Duncan (somehow) in 2001, you can get a sense of why that's unideal.

Issue is, the league is really hurting from the 2012-2015 drafts being mostly awful. There's a lack of 30ish stars and the couple who are there like Davis, Embiid and Giannis aren't moveable and wouldn't be good fits anyway. You end up with mid-30s guys having to fill those roles, but a lot of those players have already fallen apart like Kemba, Cousins and Wall. We're at the point where the best pipedream is Paul George deciding he wants to play with Wemby and Devin for a couple of years and is willing to take less to do so. I'm starting to wonder if the Spurs are going to end up being the team that gives Harden a bag. It's basically the same thing as Young but without the long-term commitment and with the downside of having Harden in a Spurs uniform.

[mo7888]

It'll be three years or five, if not more. The actual difference between Wemby and a guy like Giannis or Jokic is massive right now, even if the stats don't show it. Wemby's window hasn't opened yet, and his supporting cast is not the reason why. That's an internal thing based on his skill, temperament and experience. That process cannot be skipped or even meaningfully accelerated. Pop knows this. Manu knows this. Even Charles Barkley knows this.

The Spurs should absolutely not approach this off-season with a mandate to build a winning team. That's how you become one of those teams that throws a ton of assets and flexibility down the drain. The mandate should be to put the pieces around Wemby for him to continue his development. That should mean the Spurs get better players, and the hope is that it results in a fair bit more wins. But barring something drastic, the team is on Wemby's timeline, and that timeline may not be as far along as Victor himself wants it to be.

That's why Trae Young seems like a particularly bad trade target. He's neither young enough to grow slowly with Victor nor experienced enough to guide him. He's a relatively immature star making a ton of money and who has enough accolades where he seems to not want to adapt his way of playing at all. If their ages were reversed, and Victor were the youngish superstar in his early prime and Young were the rookie fire cracker with unreal production, the match would be amazing. It would be Duncan/Parker 2.0. If you imagine the Spurs had they drafted Tony in 1997 and Duncan (somehow) in 2001, you can get a sense of why that's unideal.

Issue is, the league is really hurting from the 2012-2015 drafts being mostly awful. There's a lack of 30ish stars and the couple who are there like Davis, Embiid and Giannis aren't moveable and wouldn't be good fits anyway. You end up with mid-30s guys having to fill those roles, but a lot of those players have already fallen apart like Kemba, Cousins and Wall. We're at the point where the best pipedream is Paul George deciding he wants to play with Wemby and Devin for a couple of years and is willing to take less to do so. I'm starting to wonder if the Spurs are going to end up being the team that gives Harden a bag. It's basically the same thing as Young but without the long-term commitment and with the downside of having Harden in a Spurs uniform.

Are we in a position to give Harden a bag cap-wise?

[Chinook]

Are we in a position to give Harden a bag cap-wise?

Not without making moves. But if they are willing to make those moves, they probably could without much difficulty.

[scott]

Spurs need not build a team able to compete for a championship next year - they do need to go through the steps of becoming a play-in/low-seed playoff team, then a high-seed and then if there are still glaring deficiencies you can go from there.

At the same token, it is foolish to think you can just keep tanking and then suddenly flip a switch to be a championship contender overnight, you still need those steps mentioned above. IMO, next season is the one we need to be a play-in/low-seed playoff team. This aligns well with the timeline of our incoming picks as well. The following season, they’ll be second year players ready to make a bigger contribution to a team making the leap from play-in to high-seed (much like someone like Jalen Williams is doing on OKC). Hopefully you also see a big 3rd year jump from those guys and they push you even further in Year 4 of the Wemby Experience. If you’re a play-in team next year, you’ll also have one more (likely late) lottery pick in the development pipeline as well (plus whatever other picks may convey if not traded away).

We also no longer need to see what Wemby can do on a bad team. Seen enough. We need to see what Wemby can do, and Wemby needs to go through, being on a compe ive (play-in) team. Can he deliver high pressure performance not just once and awhile in the few close games we’ve played, but on a consistent basis? I’ve no doubt he can, but he needs to go through that.

We also need to see what Vassell can do on a compe ive team, and soon. He’s had a long enough career on bad teams, we need to turn that around for his sake as much as Wemby’s otherwise there are development-stunting elements that can occur.

Whether or not Trae is the right move, all debatable, like flavors of ice cream. But it seems like we finally have a critical mass of though that the right move is to push forward towards building a team that can take the next step (play-in), rather than the previous preference of some, which was to just continue tanking.

[baseline bum]

Minnesota has huge luxury tax issues next season with Ant's extension kicking in. They are basically forced to either move Reid or McDaniels.

Ant's extension is pretty tame, $35 million next season, and they're below the second apron for 24-25 if they let Slowmo walk. First apron penalties are pretty light so that most contenders will probably be operating above it but below the second apron. 25-26 will be under a new TV/streaming deal so should bump the cap significantly so that Ant's extension is going to look absolute bargain basement. it's already bargain basement under the current CBA at $35 million given his market value is probably more like $60 million, but it's really going to look like a steal in 25-26 through 27-28. It'll probably give them enough wiggle room to extend Reid and Gobert without having to salary dump Towns in 25-26 unless Gobert thinks he's a 35% max player at 33.

[Robz4000]

It'll be three years or five, if not more. The actual difference between Wemby and a guy like Giannis or Jokic is massive right now, even if the stats don't show it. Wemby's window hasn't opened yet, and his supporting cast is not the reason why. That's an internal thing based on his skill, temperament and experience. That process cannot be skipped or even meaningfully accelerated. Pop knows this. Manu knows this. Even Charles Barkley knows this.

The Spurs should absolutely not approach this off-season with a mandate to build a winning team. That's how you become one of those teams that throws a ton of assets and flexibility down the drain. The mandate should be to put the pieces around Wemby for him to continue his development. That should mean the Spurs get better players, and the hope is that it results in a fair bit more wins. But barring something drastic, the team is on Wemby's timeline, and that timeline may not be as far along as Victor himself wants it to be.

That's why Trae Young seems like a particularly bad trade target. He's neither young enough to grow slowly with Victor nor experienced enough to guide him. He's a relatively immature star making a ton of money and who has enough accolades where he seems to not want to adapt his way of playing at all. If their ages were reversed, and Victor were the youngish superstar in his early prime and Young were the rookie fire cracker with unreal production, the match would be amazing. It would be Duncan/Parker 2.0. If you imagine the Spurs had they drafted Tony in 1997 and Duncan (somehow) in 2001, you can get a sense of why that's unideal.

Issue is, the league is really hurting from the 2012-2015 drafts being mostly awful. There's a lack of 30ish stars and the couple who are there like Davis, Embiid and Giannis aren't moveable and wouldn't be good fits anyway. You end up with mid-30s guys having to fill those roles, but a lot of those players have already fallen apart like Kemba, Cousins and Wall. We're at the point where the best pipedream is Paul George deciding he wants to play with Wemby and Devin for a couple of years and is willing to take less to do so. I'm starting to wonder if the Spurs are going to end up being the team that gives Harden a bag. It's basically the same thing as Young but without the long-term commitment and with the downside of having Harden in a Spurs uniform.

[MultiTroll]

Are we in a position to give Harden a bag cap-wise?

Just got thru watching him help throw the game in a 4th qtr 21 point lead by Clippers vs Lakers.
2 of his turnovers he didn't make the slightest attemtp to make them look like accidents.

Don't trust him at all.
He's long been compromised.
Locker room and overall team cancer big time.

No.

[objective]

Ant's extension is pretty tame, $35 million next season, and they're below the second apron for 24-25 if they let Slowmo walk. First apron penalties are pretty light so that most contenders will probably be operating above it but below the second apron. 25-26 will be under a new TV/streaming deal so should bump the cap significantly so that Ant's extension is going to look absolute bargain basement. it's already bargain basement under the current CBA at $35 million given his market value is probably more like $60 million, but it's really going to look like a steal in 25-26 through 27-28. It'll probably give them enough wiggle room to extend Reid and Gobert without having to salary dump Towns in 25-26 unless Gobert thinks he's a 35% max player at 33.

If Anthony Edwards makes all-nba his number jumps to 42.6 for next year

[FuzzyLumpkins]

So we have gone from trading away all our acquired lottery picks to getting James Harden.

[RC_Drunkford]

The idea would be to get someone better than Trae. Young might be the most flawed all-star in the game. I'm not a fan of settling for that, tbh.

who is that player that's better than Trae and will become available before the 25 draft, where we have about 4 picks? Just curious

[mo7888]

I'm no Harden fanboy, but if the choices are Harden for 2 or 3 years and keeping all of our draft capital or giving up a huge package for Trae... then I'll begrudgingly take Harden.

That said, if we're talking about using a bag as opposed to trading, then offer the bag to PG first...

[kace]

It'll be three years or five, if not more. The actual difference between Wemby and a guy like Giannis or Jokic is massive right now, even if the stats don't show it. Wemby's window hasn't opened yet, and his supporting cast is not the reason why. That's an internal thing based on his skill, temperament and experience. That process cannot be skipped or even meaningfully accelerated. Pop knows this. Manu knows this. Even Charles Barkley knows this.

The Spurs should absolutely not approach this off-season with a mandate to build a winning team. That's how you become one of those teams that throws a ton of assets and flexibility down the drain. The mandate should be to put the pieces around Wemby for him to continue his development. That should mean the Spurs get better players, and the hope is that it results in a fair bit more wins. But barring something drastic, the team is on Wemby's timeline, and that timeline may not be as far along as Victor himself wants it to be.

i don't think there's only one way to win or to build a contender. it depends on the opportunities.

The Lakers didn't wait for Kobe to be at his prime to win championships with him. If we can somehow get our hands on a star, i say we should do it. Good role players will follow and we could still develop some young prospects. I really believe Wemby will be very very good in two years. no need to wait for his supposed prime in his middle twenties.

i'm not saying it would be a failure if we don't win, or at least contends, till Victor is 24-25 years old. I'm just saying that if we have the oppportunity to improve drastically without comprosing the team in the long term, we should try it.

and we definitely should win more games as soon as next year. Pop will have some pressure to gets results with the team, the first season it will happen for him since a very long time. Not that i think he is not able to do that or that he is too worried about the pressure, but it will be an interesting season.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

who is that player that's better than Trae and will become available before the 25 draft, where we have about 4 picks? Just curious

Just because you do not know who might be available does not mean that other all stars could not be had that are not in consideration. Being a Spurs fan this is par the course with their trades and signings. They seldom telegraph their intentions or preference.

Uncertainty is no excuse for desperation.

[RC_Drunkford]

Just because you do not know who might be available does not mean that other all stars could not be had that are not in consideration. Being a Spurs fan this is par the course with their trades and signings. They seldom telegraph their intentions or preference.

Uncertainty is no excuse for desperation.

That's the type of answer I expected. Y'all don't have a target and are just fantasizing. And now people all of a sudden want James Harden

The bottom line is this: Most of our warchest will be gone by the 25 draft. If the Bulls pick conveys we will be left with swaps and one ATL pick, besides our own draft picks. So who you want to trade for then? Or do y'all want to draft 4 rookies?

[baseline bum]

If Anthony Edwards makes all-nba his number jumps to 42.6 for next year

Then they'd have to salary dump some guys to make up for that ~$7.5 million difference. Still not drastic enough to where they'd have to salary dump Reid to get under the second apron.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

That's the type of answer I expected. Y'all don't have a target and are just fantasizing. And now people all of a sudden want James Harden

The bottom line is this: Most of our warchest will be gone by the 25 draft. If the Bulls pick conveys we will be left with swaps and one ATL pick, besides our own draft picks. So who you want to trade for then? Or do y'all want to draft 4 rookies?

No, I am saying that you are playing off uncertainty based on lack of fan access. You can act smarmy if you like but your just left with fearmongering.

Spurs have the Hawks over a barrel with their picks. It makes sense that the two would be talking and that the Hawks would be chirping. We have a good shot a Young but this notion that we need to make a desperate play is just weak minded foolishness.

[baseline bum]

I'm no Harden fanboy, but if the choices are Harden for 2 or 3 years and keeping all of our draft capital or giving up a huge package for Trae... then I'll begrudgingly take Harden.

That said, if we're talking about using a bag as opposed to trading, then offer the bag to PG first...

It's really only a huge package for Trae if you're convinced they'll dump him to the Lakers for picks and thus tank without having any of their own picks, which I don't see at all. Otherwise it's trading two picks likely to be around #10 and a swap to around #10 plus change for him while giving them the chance to make those three top 5 picks for themselves. They're not going to get a deal better than that for Trae.

[TD 21]

The Spurs wouldn't touch Harden with a 10 foot pole and they'd have to blow the Clippers offer out of the water to get him to reconsider anyway.

Holiday, on the other hand, I could see them pursuing. Of course, he's overwhelmingly likely to either re-sign with the Celtics or if he prefers a bigger role while remaining in championship contention, sign with the 76ers.

Whether or not Trae is the right move, all debatable, like flavors of ice cream. But it seems like we finally have a critical mass of though that the right move is to push forward towards building a team that can take the next step (play-in), rather than the previous preference of some, which was to just continue tanking.

That's what these people don't get. They're so consumed with the flavor of the month, which just so happens to currently be Young.

This is more so about the unique situation this organization finds itself in and the needle they're going to have to thread which doesn't align with their fetish of relying on raw 19 year old's in a projected weak draft, hoarding picks and pursuing marginal upgrades.

who is that player that's better than Trae and will become available before the 25 draft, where we have about 4 picks? Just curious

I've yet to see any of the detractors answer this. All they do is regurgitate the things we all already know.

[DAF86]

who is that player that's better than Trae and will become available before the 25 draft, where we have about 4 picks? Just curious

Why do we need to find Wemby's co-star before the 25 draft?

[DAF86]

I'm no Harden fanboy, but if the choices are Harden for 2 or 3 years and keeping all of our draft capital or giving up a huge package for Trae... then I'll begrudgingly take Harden.

That said, if we're talking about using a bag as opposed to trading, then offer the bag to PG first...

Also, pretty much this. Harden on a short deal and without giving up draft capital >>>>>>> Trae minus 4 unprotected first round picks.

[mo7888]

It's really only a huge package for Trae if you're convinced they'll dump him to the Lakers for picks and thus tank without having any of their own picks, which I don't see at all. Otherwise it's trading two picks likely to be around #10 and a swap to around #10 plus change for him while giving them the chance to make those three top 5 picks for themselves. They're not going to get a deal better than that for Trae.

I'd still rather have Harden + three #10 picks (swap included) than Trae - those picks. That lets me use those picks to trade for other players.

[JPB]

It'll be three years or five, if not more. The actual difference between Wemby and a guy like Giannis or Jokic is massive right now, even if the stats don't show it. Wemby's window hasn't opened yet, and his supporting cast is not the reason why. That's an internal thing based on his skill, temperament and experience. That process cannot be skipped or even meaningfully accelerated. Pop knows this. Manu knows this. Even Charles Barkley knows this.

The Spurs should absolutely not approach this off-season with a mandate to build a winning team. .

I completely disagree with that, and pretty much everybody I hear or read, including Barkley, Woj, windohorst, Stein... disagreé with that. Actually, everyone is saying exactly the opposite. And there's what Manu said and what the spurs thought at the start of the season and there's what Wemby is kinda of forcing them to reconsider, will they or not. And I'm not sure what makes so sure of what Pop and spurs FO's miindset right now... Atually Pop admitted he didn't expect Wemby to be that good znd to post those kind of stats.

there's absolutley no way, if you ask me, Spurs quietly see this as a 3-5 process, developing picks, and not making major moves to make them compe ive quickly... Nobody wokld understand or accept that, starting by the fans and Wemby... That would be a crime against BB to bury Wemby into 3 more years of purgatory while he'll already be a top 10 (top 5?) NBA player next year... The kid has best in history potential and he's already all NBA defense.

No way with not only how wemly plays, but the clear signs he's sending. (flirting with tRae at the ASG, mentioning winning every other sentence, saying he understands spurs see it as a step by ste process but he's used to climb the stairs running, Windhorst (close to Wemby's clan) publcly saying Wemby won't take the losing very long)...

Spurs SHOULD absolutley try to mkae the team more compe ive this summer.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

It's really only a huge package for Trae if you're convinced they'll dump him to the Lakers for picks and thus tank without having any of their own picks, which I don't see at all. Otherwise it's trading two picks likely to be around #10 and a swap to around #10 plus change for him while giving them the chance to make those three top 5 picks for themselves. They're not going to get a deal better than that for Trae.

Why even give the extra pick? Let them self tank and trade Young making our pick and swap top 7 or even better. They get what exactly? Please. I'll take my chances trying to sell the tanking team's picks.

Unless they can find some lottery team or miracle talent windfall that we cannot get in on to trade with, they have two choices, trade with us or don't trade at all for the next two years.

[baseline bum]

I'd still rather have Harden + three #10 picks (swap included) than Trae - those picks. That lets me use those picks to trade for other players.

I don't get it. Trade those picks one at a time for marginal players? Harden's a who disappears every single playoffs, I wouldn't want him in free agency even on the reduced money the Spurs could offer. Wemby would ing hate playing with a guy who gives such little of a about winning.

[baseline bum]

Why even give the extra pick? Let them self tank and trade Young making our pick and swap top 7 or even better. They get what exactly? Please. I'll take my chances trying to sell the tanking team's picks.

Unless they can find some lottery team or miracle talent windfall that we cannot get in on to trade with, they have two choices, trade with us or don't trade at all for the next two years.

What extra pick? I'm saying give them their 25 and 27 and tear up the 26 swap plus change (like Keldon + Collins for salary matching purposes). They're not going to tank by trading Young when they don't have their 25/26/27 picks. I don't know why people think they're going to do the Spurs such a solid by bottoming out so we can draft Cooper Flagg and AJ Dybantsa with their picks.