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  1. #276
    Still Hates Small Ball Spurminator's Avatar
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    So they either need to bring in a player who can be that guy and let Victor be his co-star, or they need to bring in a co-star who's older and will help develop the culture of the players while being under the full understanding that the Spurs aren't a contender. Young checks neither box -- him being on the team still relies on Victor being the guy for them to win
    I don't know if I'm fully aboard the Young bandwagon but he's already taken a team to the Conference Finals without any other player of Wemby's calibur.

    The Spurs run a higher risk of alienating Wembanyama by botching an acceleration attempt than they do of building too slowly. I think Victor can see himself more clearly than some of the fans can. I think he knows how much higher the bar is for him to reach and isn't under the assumption that him as a 20-year-old should expect instant success, even if as a compe ive person he would like to see it.
    Botching an acceleration attempt probably at least gets them in the Playoffs but with a disappointing result. Building too slowly involves Wemby potentially being on a 20 win team for the next two or three years. I disagree on the level of risk here.

    Doncic only has the "put the team on his back" mode similar to Harden. He doesn't have the change of pace or adaptability he needs to synergize with his supporting cast. That's a big reason why Dallas has hemorrhaged assets trying to build around him. They made their version of the Young trade for Kristaps and still haven't finished paying off that loan. Their future picks are almost all spoken for and they have basically a gray goo of role-players who are almost completely rely on Doncic and Irving to be individually great simultaneously to really have a ceiling. A lot of folks are talking about Luka being justified to walk away from Dallas, but it wouldn't be because they didn't try to build around him. It would be because they tried to rush things, botched it and then continued to throw assets down the well hoping to come out the other side. Maybe it'll work out, now that Luka is in his sixth year and has had the time people want to believe Wemby doesn't need. It's just a shame his supporting cast is with little way of substantially fixing it any time soon.
    Porzingis was a good move that didn't work out. It's not like the Mavs would have been better off holding onto Dennis Smith Jr, and the 1RP they gave up didn't amount to much either (it ended up being #25, and they held onto the 2023 pick by tanking into the bottom 10).

    Meanwhile they also got THJ who is a significant contributor, flipped KP for Dinwiddie who was a key contributor to their Conference Finals run, and then flipped Dinwiddie for Kyrie Irving. I don't think you'll find a lot of Mavs fans (or players) who regret the Porzingis trade. The Jalen Brunson thing is another story.

  2. #277
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    I think one thing that works in the Spurs favor here, even if they make a big move to acquire Trae, it still wouldn't cons ute going "all-in" because of the vastness of the warchest. As I posted in a scenario earlier, you could send ATL all their picks back, plus the TOR pick, plus Keldon and Collins and still have all of your own picks plus the CHI and CHA (lol) picks and the BOS and DAL swaps.

    If you need to move on from Trae, even at a fraction of what you gave up to get him, that is doable (assuming you haven't completely deteriorated his value) and get some capital back. So while Trae might look like an "all-in" move on the surface, the FO's shrewdness (in which I give them full credit for, despite my criticism of their team building prowess) has put them in a position to make a move like this while retaining capital and flexibility to make further moves. In no way do I feel like a Trae acquisition puts them in a position of being stuck the way Minnesota or Phoenix are with the Gobert and Durant acquisitions.

  3. #278
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    Wemby doesn't strike me as being as impatient as Luka, but still... If Dallas had been as patient with Dennis Smith Jr. as people around here want to be with some of the young Spurs who haven't shown much promise yet, and tried to slowly build around Luka through the draft, he'd have been out of Dallas by now.

  4. #279
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    And a disclaimer: I'm not even completely sold on Trae. Part of me would even prefer to bring DJM at a much lower cost to be a key starter but not our co-star. But, I can definitely clearly see the appeal of a Trae acquisition.

  5. #280
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    Wemby doesn't strike me as being as impatient as Luka, but still... If Dallas had been as patient with Dennis Smith Jr. as people around here want to be with some of the young Spurs who haven't shown much promise yet, and tried to slowly build around Luka through the draft, he'd have been out of Dallas by now.
    Yeah, this is where I generally am at. I don't want to sit around and hope Vassell/Sochan/Johnson/Branham/Wesley develop into a championship core around Wemby, because I've seen enough to have my own opinion of what these guys are. Sure, I might be wrong... but at some point you have to draw conclusions and make decisions, you can't just sit on your hands and wait for perfect information.

  6. #281
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    I don't know if I'm fully aboard the Young bandwagon but he's already taken a team to the Conference Finals without any other player of Wemby's calibur.



    Botching an acceleration attempt probably at least gets them in the Playoffs but with a disappointing result. Building too slowly involves Wemby potentially being on a 20 win team for the next two or three years. I disagree on the level of risk here.
    As I said before, this is just assuming that whatever move the Spurs make will work so long as it's the move you want them to make. The Spurs are only going to be a 20-win team for two or three years if Victor doesn't continue to develop. That's whether they make a move or not. They're only so bad because he's raw. Further along his developmental curve, he'll be able to drag a bad cast to the playoffs just as the other stars have. As Atlanta themselves show, it's not a given that the team will see a big improvement after making a big acquisition, so assuming in that end is wrong too.

    Porzingis was a good move that didn't work out. It's not like the Mavs would have been better off holding onto Dennis Smith Jr, and the 1RP they gave up didn't amount to much either (it ended up being #25, and they held onto the 2023 pick by tanking into the bottom 10).
    KP wasn't a good move because he's basically tied their trade ability up for years and forced them into giving up unprotected assets later on because they couldn't trade near-future assets. They didn't keep the 2023 pick. The protection rolled over to this year, and that pick is going to the Knicks. Yes, all these years later, the Mavericks are STILL paying for a player who's two teams away now. That put them in a position where the only star they could acquire is Irving with all his flaws and awkward fit. Moreover, "good trades that don't work out" don't keep stars any more than obviously bad ones do. The results matter, not the effort.

    I don't think you'll find a lot of Mavs fans (or players) who regret the Porzingis trade. The Jalen Brunson thing is another story.
    And a lot of people will say Luka is justified in leaving when his contract is up. Dallas is an incredibly responsive FO who is willing to pull a problem out by its roots no matter how painful. That's good in a vacuum. The issue is that if you keep having pull out problems and rework them, you end up with the gray goo. The Mavericks have spent assets like they were assembling a super team and ended up with a mediocre roster. The hypothetical Spurs team you're worrying about could still go all-in like MKE did for Holiday. A gray goo Spurs team can't pivot at all.

  7. #282
    what uganda do about it? Joseph Kony's Avatar
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    the difference between the Spurs and Mavs is they don't need to cough up their own draft assets to get a Young deal done, most likely. Spurs can trade for a star player while still controlling their own draft capital allowing them to make further moves. Spurs need to show Wemby they are serious about trying to win. He's already expressed a desire for vets on the team. sitting around hoping Vassell magically becomes Kobe like he thinks he is or that Sochan is going to turn into prime Draymond Green isn't going to get it done. after this season, Spurs need to start being aggressive in trades/FA

  8. #283
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    I think one thing that works in the Spurs favor here, even if they make a big move to acquire Trae, it still wouldn't cons ute going "all-in" because of the vastness of the warchest. As I posted in a scenario earlier, you could send ATL all their picks back, plus the TOR pick, plus Keldon and Collins and still have all of your own picks plus the CHI and CHA (lol) picks and the BOS and DAL swaps.

    If you need to move on from Trae, even at a fraction of what you gave up to get him, that is doable (assuming you haven't completely deteriorated his value) and get some capital back. So while Trae might look like an "all-in" move on the surface, the FO's shrewdness (in which I give them full credit for, despite my criticism of their team building prowess) has put them in a position to make a move like this while retaining capital and flexibility to make further moves. In no way do I feel like a Trae acquisition puts them in a position of being stuck the way Minnesota or Phoenix are with the Gobert and Durant acquisitions.
    They wont take keldon or collins....That makes no sense for them.

  9. #284
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    The question one needs to answer for the Spurs to get closer to contention isn't if Wemby is ready or not, but which is that star/ second star player who will help Wemby in his quest to help the Spurs win a championship in the medium term. Wemby has clearly proven that
    a) he is among the best rookies ever,
    b) he is already among the best rim-protectors not just today but probably ever, and
    c) his offensive game has grown in leaps and bounds and faster than anyone expected.

    If the Spurs' strategy is to wait to build through the draft by hitting triples and home runs with their picks, the chances are most likely that they will never get the right mix of support players who will help Wemby reach that mark.

    They will ultimately have to get out of the Hinkie-like plan sooner rather than later and their ceiling will be OKC Thunder of today in 3 years' time with Wemby threatening to be as good as SGA is today in terms of being in the MVP conversation *IF* they get all their moves right and surround Wemby with exceptionally performing players around him. The floor could be the 76ers with Embiid and Simmons in it before Butler, Re and others joined the team to push it towards contention in two years time.

    On the other hand, if the Spurs decide to accelerate their plan towards contention and play it well in terms of getting the right talent around Wemby in the form of decent Free Agents/ players to be got via trade while retaining their important draft picks and replace the current turd lot of Branham, Champagnie, Mamu, Zollins, Osman, Devonte with more functional role players and even veterans while retaining Vassell, Jones and Wesley and if push comes to shove, even Johnson.. they have a higher ceiling in the same time frame and a much higher floor for sure.

    Here are some free agents I would love the Spurs to target next year without jeopardizing the plan to build around Wemby -

    Priority 1 - A two-way wing to replace Champagnie, who can provide much better on the ball defense and also consistent shooting, besides shot creation through isolation if needed.

    Options -

    A. Paul George would be the best fit. He has a player option next year and hasn't still signed an extension with the Clips. Chances of getting - near nil as the Clippers are moving to a new arena and will throw the dice on the Leonard-George combo again even if they falter again this postseason. The only way to get him is to blow the compe ion out with yet another near-max contract for the 33 year old versatile player.

    B. Mikal Bridges - would be the perfect fit to Wemby and Vassell and can even catapult the Spurs to playoff contention. Is a free agent only in 2026 though and can be prised out only if the Spurs are willing to trade some picks for him. Sean Marks will surely play hardball and the Spurs might have to trade the Celtics pick in 2028 and one or two of the Atlanta picks to get him. As of now, the Nets aren't keen on trading him, but that stance may change at the end of this season if the Nets continue to stagnate and because they dont have the wherewithal to get good lottery picks in 2024, 2025 (they have the Phoenix unprotected ones in 2025 and 2027 and their own in 2026 but the Suns' picks will be late first rounders and 2026 is 2 years away).

    I would gladly trade for Bridges as I think he will be a key bridge (pun intended) to the Spurs' pathway to contention going forward and a perfect fit with Wemby. Chances of getting him - decent but requires the Spurs to give up some draft capital in 2024 and 2025 for sure besides trade Keldon Johnson to the Nets. I personally would gladly do that. Wemby, Bridges and Vassell will be a great two-way combo (all three are already 80%ile and above or nearabouts in both defensive and offensive EPM) plus the Spurs can punt with some picks while keeping some important ones such as their own unprotected ones in 2024 and 2025 possibly.

    C. Pascal Siakam - also has a player option. More a PF than a SF, but can capably depend both positions. Not as good as George, but a capable Robin. The Pacers will most likely re-sign him with the catch that they are already paying Haliburtion supermax money and will have to hedge their contract offering a bit to Siakam. If the Spurs are willing to outpay the Pacers, they can get Siakam, but I doubt he is worth the near-supermax or even the max itself. Chances of getting him: Very little, as the Pacers have his Bird Rights and will offer a five year contract (correct me if I am wrong).

    D. LeBron James - the closest to an active GOAT is still beating Father Time effectively at age 39. But the cliff isn't far off. Bron also seems to play defense only in crunch time or when he is in the mood. But he will still be a tremendous playmaker setting the table rather easily for Wemby while conserving the energy to be able to mount a good run in the playoffs if required. He, too, has a player option but if he isn't exercising it, he is most likely going to try to latch onto other contenders to win a ring rather than build a contender. Chances of getting him- Nearly NIL.

    E. Tobias Harris - While he is nowhere as good as the three players above, he is much better than Keldon Johnson or Jeremy Sochan and will be a certain upgrade over these two, in my opinion. A more capable and consistent three point shooter and someone who offers secondary offense, he can be a good fit with Wemby and Vassell. And he can be had for the relatively cheap as well. Chances of getting him - not bad at all and won't cost much in terms of draft picks etc

    Priority 2 - Point Guard , Playmaker.

    Options -

    A. Trae Young. I dont have to add to what you guys have been discussing here. But suffice to say he will be a high risk, high reward addition. He will be a delight on offense but he is bound to disappoint on defense despite strides made this season. I would personally go for him only if the Spurs dont manage to get any of the aforementioned five and are able to keep its prime lottery picks in 2024 and 2025 besides some of the unprotected picks of the future. Chances of getting him - quite high.

    B. Tyus Jones. Tre's brother will be a great fit if the Spurs get one of the Priority 1 wings. And he will be available for relatively cheap. He will be as good as his younger brother but will offer even more steadiness and more importantly much better outside shooting. He will be only inferior to his brother on defense but that won't matter much if the Spurs get a capable on ball wing defender (Mikal Bridges) to pair with Wemby, Vassell along with Sochan. Chances of getting him - very high.

    Other role players, one or two among them, that I would target to shuffle the role player set - Isaiah Joe, Lonnie Walker (again!), Jalen Smith, Nic Batum.

    My ideal roster next season for the Spurs if all the chips fall in place ( wont happen but still )-

    PG: Tyus Jones, Tre Jones, Blake Wesley
    SG: Devin Vassell, Lonnie Walker/ Isiah Joe, (two way player)
    SF/W: Mikal Bridges, Nic Batum, Julian Champagnie
    PF/W: Jeremy Sochan, Zaccharie Risacher, (A decent two way player)
    C: Victor Wembanyama, Zach Collins, Dom Barlow

    Assumptions:
    1. I am assuming the Spurs trade Keldon, Branham, Cissoko plus a host of draft picks (including the Toronto 2024 pick) to the Nets for Bridges if that opportunity is made available (most likely after the draft lottery is done).
    2. I am assuming that the Spurs sign Tyus Jones for a reasonable 3 year contract for about $15 million roughly a year, sign Walker/ Joe for contracts worth $8-10 million/ year.
    3. And I am assuming the Spurs luck into Risacher in the 2024 draft, which is very much possible considering their own lottery odds in 2024. If something like this transpires, the Spurs get enough three point shooting and defense plus decent playmaking to help Wemby and mould the Spurs into at least a playoff contender. This also allows sufficient development for Risacher (who will push Sochan).

    4. If instead, the Spurs land Nikola Topic, they shouldn't go towards getting another PG and should continue to trust Tre Jones as the lead PG but still aim to get Bridges for SF and someone like Naji Marshall as backup PF to Sochan.

    ---

    In a nuts , the Spurs must not hesitate to use its future draft pick basket to get a competent two-way player and a bunch of more effective role players than who they have now. This will accelerate the path to success for the Spurs with Wemby at the helm.

    Just one scenario rather than the risky Trae Young trade or just meandering for another year with turds surrounding Wemby and Vassell.
    Last edited by Spursfanfromafar; 02-15-2024 at 03:46 PM. Reason: Formatting

  10. #285
    Veteran scott's Avatar
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    As I said before, this is just assuming that whatever move the Spurs make will work so long as it's the move you want them to make. The Spurs are only going to be a 20-win team for two or three years if Victor doesn't continue to develop. That's whether they make a move or not. They're only so bad because he's raw. Further along his developmental curve, he'll be able to drag a bad cast to the playoffs just as the other stars have. As Atlanta themselves show, it's not a given that the team will see a big improvement after making a big acquisition, so assuming in that end is wrong too.
    I take strong issue to this. The Spurs aren't bad because Wemby is raw or isn't good enough. The Spurs are bad because (a) the rest of the roster is trash and (b) the coach doesn't seem too concerned with winning or losing. (b) may be resolve itself over time if Pop magically decides to start winning but (a) in my opinion isn't going to be overcome simply by Wemby's natural evolution. Maybe we transform from a 16-win team to a 25 or 30-win team this way, but I won't count on him dragging this roster + new rookies to the playoffs.

  11. #286
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    They wont take keldon or collins....That makes no sense for them.
    Not the important details that matter to the point of my original comment, which is the Spurs won't be emptying their war chest in any Trae acquisition.

  12. #287
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    Great post Spursfanfromafar, but can I request some spacing/formatting in your post? That was honestly as hard to read as when Dejounte was using DJM font.

  13. #288
    Veteran Spursfanfromafar's Avatar
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    Great post Spursfanfromafar, but can I request some spacing/formatting in your post? That was honestly as hard to read as when Dejounte was using DJM font.
    Thanks. I have tried to do that. Please see above.

  14. #289
    Every game is game 1 Seventyniner's Avatar
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    I take strong issue to this. The Spurs aren't bad because Wemby is raw or isn't good enough. The Spurs are bad because (a) the rest of the roster is trash and (b) the coach doesn't seem too concerned with winning or losing. (b) may be resolve itself over time if Pop magically decides to start winning but (a) in my opinion isn't going to be overcome simply by Wemby's natural evolution. Maybe we transform from a 16-win team to a 25 or 30-win team this way, but I won't count on him dragging this roster + new rookies to the playoffs.
    I don't think you fully appreciate how much better the Spurs have been since Tre Jones was put in the starting lineup. Their expected win % over those 22 games based on point differential is 39%, which translates to 32 wins over 82 games.

    It wasn't just the Sochan at PG experiment that was a disaster, it was also starting Collins next to Wemby. I don't think it's inconceivable that the Spurs could win 37 games or so next year while only making moderate improvements to the roster, and that should be enough to at least be close to the play-in. Assuming Pop manages to stop himself from re-implanting his head in his ass when it comes to lineup decisions and rotations.

  15. #290
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    I don't think you fully appreciate how much better the Spurs have been since Tre Jones was put in the starting lineup. Their expected win % over those 22 games based on point differential is 39%, which translates to 32 wins over 82 games.

    It wasn't just the Sochan at PG experiment that was a disaster, it was also starting Collins next to Wemby. I don't think it's inconceivable that the Spurs could win 37 games or so next year while only making moderate improvements to the roster, and that should be enough to at least be close to the play-in. Assuming Pop manages to stop himself from re-implanting his head in his ass when it comes to lineup decisions and rotations.
    Sure, but that also only further demonstrates the point that it's not Wemby's rawness holding this team back - but the sheer inep ude of the rest of the roster and the coaching decisions. If you can add wins via (a) roster improvement or (b) Wemby's natural development, then (a) is going to be far more incrementally effective than (b).

  16. #291
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    I take strong issue to this. The Spurs aren't bad because Wemby is raw or isn't good enough.
    Yes they are. Full stop. If he were the player you think he is, they would be a more successful team this year. That's not a knock on Victor. He's a rookie. But if you could transplant Prime Wemby onto this team instead of Current Wemby, the team would win 45 games and make the playoffs. That is how high he can get (and needs to reach to be a HoFer/GOAT candidate) and far he still has to go. Of course that doesn't mean the roster and posture aren't also factors. The team doesn't care about winning this year, and the team is both young and still playing guys with below-average ability. But this roster and this coach still won more games last year despite much more obviously wanting to lose. There are a number of little explanations for that, but the big one is that they reoriented their team to focus on a raw player and create the developmental environment they believe he needs.

    I get that to you with your belief in Wemby, that seems ridiculous. But I also think you haven't separated Wemby the player from Wemby the hype train. I think you're projecting the frustration you're feeling that the reality doesn't match the potential onto Victor and combined with the scarring from Kawhi's whole thing, it's making you apply a level of desperation onto the situation that just isn't there. If the Spurs become a 30-win team next year, that's good, especially if it's the result of Victor improving and/or the roster getting better and showing more chemistry. I'd go so far as to say that that would be MUCH better than if they win 40 games after a Young trade. The Thunder only improved by three wins in Durant's sop re season. They jumped to 50 wins their third year when Durant became an MVP candidate and doubled his win-share total. This really wasn't a supporting-cast thing either, as Durant at almost as many win-shares (16.1) as Jeff Green, Westbrook and Harden combined (17.2). The Thunder were still very much in the mode of selling cap space for assets. Most of their top-dollar guys were either deep in the rotation or weren't even on the team by the end of the year. No, this was literally a HoFer ascending and carrying his team to the playoffs.

    Presti obviously had special luck in the 2007-2009 drafts, but it's much easier to find examples of that sort of story than the one where a team drafts a phenom, makes a quick trade and takes off. I think folks should look at what strategies have worked and failed in the past. There's a real chance Wemby starts putting pressure on the Spurs after year six if they haven't truly pivoted to contending. People can fear it happening earlier, but after year six is when Wemby will be eligible for his second extension, and him not signing that extension immediately will be the first time the Spurs will really feel pressure. Of course, with the DPE, it's unlikely he'd pass on it anyway. But putting it out there that he might want to wait to sign it that will be the signal to the Spurs that he might ask out. Any time before then, it's an unrealistic fear. (And yes, that timing is exactly why Young might be traded this summer and why Luka wasn't a risk to be traded before now).
    Last edited by Chinook; 02-15-2024 at 04:18 PM.

  17. #292
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    Mikal Bridges - would be the perfect fit to Wemby and Vassell and can even catapult the Spurs to playoff contention. Is a free agent only in 2026 though and can be prised out only if the Spurs are willing to trade some picks for him. Sean Marks will surely play hardball and the Spurs might have to trade the Celtics pick in 2028 and one or two of the Atlanta picks to get him. As of now, the Nets aren't keen on trading him, but that stance may change at the end of this season if the Nets continue to stagnate and because they dont have the wherewithal to get good lottery picks in 2024, 2025 (they have the Phoenix unprotected ones in 2025 and 2027 and their own in 2026 but the Suns' picks will be late first rounders and 2026 is 2 years away).
    It's not that they're not keen on trading him, but they're asking for like 4 FRPs and a good prospect.
    He'd be a perfect fit, but he's borderline out of Wemby's timeline because he'll turn 28 this year.
    Too expensive for teams that aren't read to contend right away, imo.
    Tobias Harris - While he is nowhere as good as the three players above, he is much better than Keldon Johnson or Jeremy Sochan and will be a certain upgrade over these two, in my opinion. A more capable and consistent three point shooter and someone who offers secondary offense, he can be a good fit with Wemby and Vassell. And he can be had for the relatively cheap as well. Chances of getting him - not bad at all and won't cost much in terms of draft picks etc
    He's UFA this summer, he can be had for nothing...if he wants to join.
    Sixers won't have anyone except Embiid and Maxey on the books, so they can certainly keep him if they want to.
    And I've got no doubts that 32 year old Harris would rather spend the rest of his peak with a contender than Spurs.
    If there's a chance to get him, I'd do a 3 year deal, he'd be a perfect fit next to Wemby. Also a high character guy and this team needs some veteran presence.

    Also, seems that it's not happening, but there were rumors of Herb Jones being available.
    He'd be a perfect fit. As would Trey Murphy that's currently coming off the bench because Jones is starting.
    If Murphy becomes unhappy with his bench role, Spurs should make a trade, no questions asked. Either one of them would be amazing for us.


    Priority 2 - Point Guard , Playmaker.
    Mitc is up for an extension and I think Garland will become available if Mitc stays with the Cavs.
    Garland-Mitc duo just can't work in the playoffs, too small and can't defend anything.

    Assumptions:
    Imo, there are two outcomes:
    1. Spurs draft a point guard and get some wings in free agency or via trades.
    2. Spurs draft a wing and get a point guard via trades.

    Chances of Spurs drafting a point guard are way higher, imo.
    The only other team that needs a point guard are the Wizards.
    Hornets, Wizards, Blazers and Grizzlies definitely won't be looking for a point guard.
    On the other hand, all those teams want wings, so unless Spurs win the lottery (not happening) or get second behind Wizards, chances are that PATFO's preferred wing of choice won't be available.
    Hopefully we can get that top3 pick with Wizards ahead of us and another team picking Sarr, because I really don't want a rookie point guard.
    The entire timeline would be slowed down considerably with a rookie point guard and there aren't many good wings available on the market.

    I'd honestly like to see Trae, Tobias and Risacher as summer reinforcements.
    Herb/Murphy is just a pipe dream and unlikely to happen.

  18. #293
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    Didn’t see this yet, but sorry if already posted:

    Beck is also the latest reporter to say that executives around the NBA believe Trae Young‘s name will pop up in trade rumors this offseason. One Western Conference exec told Beck, “I think they would love to trade Trae,” while another said the Hawks discussed a potential Young deal with the Spurs prior to last Thursday’s deadline.

  19. #294
    Still Hates Small Ball Spurminator's Avatar
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    As I said before, this is just assuming that whatever move the Spurs make will work so long as it's the move you want them to make. The Spurs are only going to be a 20-win team for two or three years if Victor doesn't continue to develop. That's whether they make a move or not. They're only so bad because he's raw. Further along his developmental curve, he'll be able to drag a bad cast to the playoffs just as the other stars have. As Atlanta themselves show, it's not a given that the team will see a big improvement after making a big acquisition, so assuming in that end is wrong too.
    Atlanta was an already good team that made a big acquisition, so their potential for improvement was lower (and they lost some pieces of that ECF team in the meantime).

    Anyway nothing's a given. One team wins the Championship every year, so history is littered with examples of teams that made moves that failed, along with teams who tried to patiently grow and mold a young core and failed. I'm not sure any option for the Spurs' approach here can be validated by a example in recent NBA history, so it's really all theory and opinion right now.

    In my opinion, if the Spurs can surround Wemby with some winners this summer (without necessarily going "all in" and losing any possibility of future moves), they should do it. I think being surrounded on the floor by more experienced NBA players will help help "un-raw" Wemby more quickly.

    KP wasn't a good move because he's basically tied their trade ability up for years and forced them into giving up unprotected assets later on because they couldn't trade near-future assets. They didn't keep the 2023 pick. The protection rolled over to this year, and that pick is going to the Knicks. Yes, all these years later, the Mavericks are STILL paying for a player who's two teams away now. That put them in a position where the only star they could acquire is Irving with all his flaws and awkward fit. Moreover, "good trades that don't work out" don't keep stars any more than obviously bad ones do. The results matter, not the effort.

    And a lot of people will say Luka is justified in leaving when his contract is up. Dallas is an incredibly responsive FO who is willing to pull a problem out by its roots no matter how painful. That's good in a vacuum. The issue is that if you keep having pull out problems and rework them, you end up with the gray goo. The Mavericks have spent assets like they were assembling a super team and ended up with a mediocre roster. The hypothetical Spurs team you're worrying about could still go all-in like MKE did for Holiday. A gray goo Spurs team can't pivot at all.
    The KP trade hamstrung them so badly that they were still able to trade for a starting PG in 2022, a top 10-15 NBA player in 2023, a starting center and starting SF in 2024, and still draft an All-NBA Rookie in 2023. And yes, the 1RP they traded to the Knicks rolled into this summer and will probably be in the 20's. Seeing as the Mavs were able to protect it in 2023 and draft Derrick Lively, I don't you'll find many Mavs fans losing sleep over it.

    No solution is foolproof, nor is every move guaranteed to be a success. If Luka leaves at the end of the contract, that doesn't mean that hanging onto Dennis Scott, Jr. and Dorian Finney-Smith while trying to slowly mold Josh Green and Jaden Hardy as 2/3 punches would have convinced him to stay around.

  20. #295
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    Beck is also the latest reporter to say that executives around the NBA believe Trae Young‘s name will pop up in trade rumors this offseason. One Western Conference exec told Beck, “I think they would love to trade Trae,” while another said the Hawks discussed a potential Young deal with the Spurs prior to last Thursday’s deadline.
    Western?
    Timberwolves, Thunder, Nuggets, Clippers, Suns, Mavericks, Kings, Warriors, Grizzlies, Blazers can be excluded, more or less.
    Rockets have FVV, but they might be interested, although it seems unlikely.
    Idk what are Pelicans even trying to do, they're so random. Good roster with questionable fit.
    Lakers would love to get him, but have no assets.
    Leaving us with Spurs and Jazz.

    Spurs are unlikely to talk, meaning that either Pelinka or Ainge are stirring up.

  21. #296
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    Yes they are. Full stop. If he were the player you think he is, they would be a more successful team this year. That's not a knock on Victor. He's a rookie. But if you could transplant Prime Wemby onto this team instead of Current Wemby, the team would win 45 games and make the playoffs. That is how high he can get (and needs to reach to be a HoFer/GOAT candidate) and far he still has to go. Of course that doesn't mean the roster and posture aren't also factors. The team doesn't care about winning this year, and the team is both young and still playing guys with below-average ability. But this roster and this coach still won more games last year despite much more obviously wanting to lose. There are a number of little explanations for that, but the big one is that they reoriented their team to focus on a raw player and create the developmental environment they believe he needs.

    I get that to you with your belief in Wemby, that seems ridiculous. But I also think you haven't separated Wemby the player from Wemby the hype train. I think you're projecting the frustration you're feeling that the reality doesn't match the potential onto Victor and combined with the scarring from Kawhi's whole thing, it's making you apply a level of desperation onto the situation that just isn't there. If the Spurs become a 30-win team next year, that's good, especially if it's the result of Victor improving and/or the roster getting better and showing more chemistry. I'd go so far as to say that that would be MUCH better than if they win 40 games after a Young trade. The Thunder only improved by three wins in Durant's sop re season. They jumped to 50 wins their third year when Durant became an MVP candidate and doubled his win-share total. This really wasn't a supporting-cast thing either, as Durant at almost as many win-shares (16.1) as Jeff Green, Westbrook and Harden combined (17.2). The Thunder were still very much in the mode of selling cap space for assets. Most of their top-dollar guys were either deep in the rotation or weren't even on the team by the end of the year. No, this was literally a HoFer ascending and carrying his team to the playoffs.

    Presti obviously had special luck in the 2007-2009 drafts, but it's much easier to find examples of that sort of story than the one where a team drafts a phenom, makes a quick trade and takes off. I think folks should look at what strategies have worked and failed in the past. There's a real chance Wemby starts putting pressure on the Spurs after year six if they haven't truly pivoted to contending. People can fear it happening earlier, but after year six is when Wemby will be eligible for his second extension, and him not signing that extension immediately will be the first time the Spurs will really feel pressure. Of course, with the DPE, it's unlikely he'd pass on it anyway. But putting it out there that he might want to wait to sign it that will be the signal to the Spurs that he might ask out. Any time before then, it's an unrealistic fear. (And yes, that timing is exactly why Young might be traded this summer and why Luka wasn't a risk to be traded before now).
    This entire analysis requires a bit of circular reasoning. Would the Spurs be better if Wemby were in his prime? Sure. Would the Spurs be better if the roster were better? This should also be, unquestionably, yes. If you swapped Wemby with Chet, would OKC be better or worse? Would the Spurs be better or worse?

    The fact is that you can't swap Wemby with his future self, he is only what he is. But the Spurs are not bad because Wemby isn't good enough. The Spurs are bad because the Spurs are bad. They were bad last year.

    As Seventyniner points out, the Spurs are actually better since starting Tre and moving Wemby to C than they were last year (39% expected win % since, compared to a .268 actual Win % last year which was actually an overachievement. Their expected W% last year was .197. Source: https://insider.espn.com/nba/stats/rpi/_/year/2023). Extrapolated over the course of 82 games, that a +16 expected win differential with Wemby as the main variable. Wemby hasn't made the team worse as a function of his rawness, the team is just bad to begin with and it had a coach who spend a good chunk of the season ing around.

  22. #297
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    Michael Jordan in his prime couldn’t carry this season’s Spurs. I just don’t get that logic at all and it’s certainly an opinion very few people will agree with.

  23. #298
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    The Atlanta Hawks and San Antonio Spurs discussed a trade involving Trae Young ahead of last week's trade deadline, according to Howard Beck of The Ringer.

    Young has been the subject of several trade rumors, with the Lakers also reportedly interested.

    The Hawks also kept Dejounte Murray past the trade deadline.

    Beck adds that it is a "near certainty" that the Hawks will trade one or both of the players this summer.

    HOWARD BECK/THE RINGER
    It's gonna happen this summer tbh. Just watch

  24. #299
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    Well, it would've been dumb to do it now, would just ruin our lottery and we wouldn't get into the playoffs.

    I'd give them their picks back with Keldon+Collins.
    Or Devin+Collins with us keeping one of their picks.
    They can forget about five picks they probably asked for.

  25. #300
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    Bro...Wemby is doing things tim duncan did his rookie year.And tim won a chip in his second year.Tim had a good team helping him.
    We need to do the same with wemby,We got lucky and drafted wemby...Now lets tak advantage and make moves to get this man help.
    We cant wait 4 or 5 years to develop players like branham and sochan and all wright trash players he drafted.Wemby is ready now.
    Tim joined a cohesive, ready made team that had already been to the WCFs. There’s no way to replicate that. Simply grabbing vets doesn’t make them cohesive. That team was also incinerated by the end of his 4th year,with only David carrying forward for two more years. They had to start over with draft picks.

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