Does tanking ruin a team?

[z0sa]

This is one of the overlooked part of the argument that we are merely in Year 1 of a 3/4 year tank. That’s a fair concept, but what other supposedly generational player took several more years of tanking after him for the team to become compe ive? I’ll grant you, Timmy is a unique case that should not be pointed at since he was added to a contender already.

All the other generational talents immediately improved their teams. The Spurs have gotten significantly worse, which was hard to even think possible.

Though I understand the argument that we are merely 1 year into a 3/4 year tank… are we just supposed to ignore the 3 lottery picks that preceded Wemby? Yes, they were late lotto picks… but they were still lotto picks. Do we get to write them off because we simply sucked instead of were deliberately tanking?

If this is a 3-4 year tank, it will mean that we missed the playoffs for 6-7 straight years to rebuild. Maybe folks are okay with that, but in what world does a GM and HC who require a 7 year rebuild deserve to be rewarded (one of them with the highest paying contract in the league).

Once again, this former Sniffer says that this is starting to smell like horse .

Some other great points made… I’d be more at peace with the tank if there were discernible development taking place. Instead, we have Wemby missing out on key developmental opportunities because his teammates suck. We have Devin turning into a poor-shot selection black hole because the team around him suck ass and he can’t get fed properly, and we have Sochan being forced into being something he is not and is not his highest and best use. The result is we lose by 40 and gain nothing. If we’re going to lose by 40 and have a 4-22 record, at least get something out of it.

That is the conclusion I've come to as well. it took a franchise record streak of losses, but now, it's impossible to unsee.

The FO wet the bed with this roster, outside of tanking hard enough/getting the lucky roll for Wemby. It doesn't take away from their past accomplishments or anything. But there's failure from top to bottom this time. Tanking a few more years to fix it is certainly a possibility, but that won't mean this isn't a monumentally messed up roster right now.

At least we have Wemby. The damage control should center directly on making him happy enough to stay here forever, no less. If that means trading for a PG and we're only fringe playoff team for a couple years, I think it's honestly worth it, if Wemby is happy. People who think we should tank and keep the long game in mind -- there is no long game without the big fella. So if he's okay with it, and nothing indicates he is, fine. But don't act like it's some kind of certainty (not you, just in general with sniffers).

[poopbox]

Of course. You rarely ever see the same players a team tanks with on the team when they start to get good. You run the risk of not getting a franchise player, or getting a flawed franchise player, so Philly and Ben Simmons. If it doesn't work you then have to overpay to sign veteran players to make up for what you failed to hit on in the lottery. See Houston now, or Philly years ago as another example when they had to trade for Butler and for Harris, then sign Hortford to a huge extension, mainly because Embiid was the only thing they got out of tanking, and as great as he is, he ALWAYS finds ways to be hurt when it matters most.

[poopbox]

They won 40 games last year, and are currently 2nd in the west. I’d call that progress, and the end of their tank.

Maybe. He is only in this position though because he couldn't hang on to 2 HOF players and foolishly traded a 3rd.

Also, a large chunk of his draft capital doesn't exist because he made some good deals, it exist because he had paul george on his team, and that is who Kawhi wanted to play with, and thus he ended up with those picks and SGA.

Same thing with Chris Paul. Harden wanted to play with him. Presti was just as the right place at the right time.

I don't think Presti is a very good GM. He has failed at every aspect of being a GM other than luckily having the right players other stars want to play with and then just de facto getting everything from that team.

I think he is actually scared of winning anything, which would require him to make real trades and real roster moves. I wouldn't be surprised if as soon as SGA seems unhappy there he ships him out so he can restart his draft ponzi scheme all over again.

[Tyronn Lue]

I think you can get by with this as long as your players are of that caliber, meaning most of them are just trying to get paid and stay in the NBA. None of them other than Victor were told their entire careers that they are the generational talent the NBA really needs, so to them getting minutes, win or lose, means some team might see them and they might stay gainfully employed. Plus they get to say they played for Gregg Popovich, which might boost their resumes over someone similar who played for Alvin Gentry.

[Tyronn Lue]

Spus are 4-22.

You can call it whatever you want, but at this point we better be tanking because we sure as aren't winning anything this season. The only thing to play for is another good draft pick.

Half the NBA loses every night. The Spurs are historically bad vs other Spurs teams but not vs the entire league (Detroit, for example). Plenty losses were single digit losses.

[The Truth #6]

I think it's a complicated narrative. Pop delayed the tank/rebuild for years so he could get the wins record, and so instead of cashing out when Nephew ed us, Pop ed us by dragging out the the Mid Three era with veterans like Marco. The rebuild was going well with good trades but the drafting was only average to slightly above average, whiffing on Sengun and Halliburton. And now I don't believe the argument that those players would have kept us from VW, because Pop has shown an incredible ability manufacture losses, or at least it seems that way.

So to me the rebuild started with trading White and Dejounte, and we are what, 1.5 years into it now.

At least we have VW, so things are still full of great potential. Lots of upcoming draft potential. But I'm starting to lean towards making a big trade to get a quality player because I'm not convinced we are great enough at drafting talent, and if Pop is going to stick around and try to win, he is going to need to jettison a bunch of the current players simply because I don't see how they can listen to him if he starts yelling and coaching again, assuming that is a switch he can still flip.

A complicated narrative.

[venitian navigator]

difficult to apply the idea that tanking ruins a team to us, considering that tanking the last year gave us a generational prospect like Wemby.
Imho the real "rebuilding" for any team starts when you have at least a pick in the top 5 draft picks aka a player you can consider at leat a good starting five player for the next 10 years and the rebuilding project takes from 3 to 5 years after that ...so, for me, the real "rebuilding project" for us stars now...at to begin this project Wemby is not a bad starting piece at all...

[scott]

Are there any examples of coaches or GM’s that survive a true rebuild? Usually a FO/coaching staff starts the process, but gets fired before the seeds are allowed to blossom.

You could come up with some CIA Pop fantasy that this all part of the master plan… let Pop be the one to absorb all the arrows during the rebuild to set up the next person (Becky? Manu?) for success. You could come up with that… but c’mon.

[Phenomanul]

Robinson was drafted in 1987 but didn't play for the Spurs until the 1989-90 season. Robinson came into the league as a 24 year old (basically in his prime). His first year coincided with Sean Elliott's, Terry mings', Rod Strickland's and an aging Maurice Cheeks' first year with the Spurs. That's a heck of a roster turnover considering those 5 players (including The Admiral himself) were in the top-6 in usage during Robinson's rookie season though they weren't with the Spurs the season prior. Only Willie Anderson who was also in the top 6 (minutes-wise) was on the Spurs' roster the previous season. Terry mings was a 7 year veteran that seamlessly filled an All-Star caliber role during Robinson's rookie season, averaging 22.4 PPG (on 47.5 FG%) / 8.4 RPG / 2.7 APG . Rod Strickland, meanwhile, was a more-than-capable point guard.

Duncan had a different situation; like Robinson, he entered the league after having completed a 4-YR collegiate career. Duncan was 21 years of age during his rookie year, this is no knock on Victor, but 21-year olds are appreciably more mature than 19-year olds (both mentally and physically). Because Robinson was still an All-Star caliber player and an All-NBA Defense player in 1997, the Spurs were in a very unique situation where they basically added a No. 1 pick to a squad that contended for Western Conference supremacy only two seasons prior. Rookie Duncan's squad gelled pretty quick (after a so-so start) and led the league in almost every defensive metric. They were a force to be reckoned with from the get-go.

Wemby doesn't have any of those situational benefits working in his favor. On the contrary, he landed on a squad bereft of any All-Star talent and needs a running mate that will be a solid No. 2. Vassell could ultimately turn into that player, but with the current roster imbalance (no starting quality PG), even Vassell is playing out of his element and trying to do "too much". It's no wonder that Spurs' management is using this season as an opportunity to develop some of their players' weaknesses while giving Wemby a feel for the league. They know that they need a clear No. 2 to even be in a position to contend. Whether or not the mental psyche of the players themselves is shattered by this process comes second to ensuring they can position themselves to build a strong long term product. Spurs' executives know that winning (once all the pieces are in place) will quickly erase any bad memories from this developmental season. They are using it to gauge who has the mental for ude to be a part of Wemby's core and aren't trying to rush anything. They, more than anyone here, UNDERSTAND that Victor is only 19 and that this season was strictly developmental.

[ambchang]

Vassell is already developing some pretty bad habits. Poor defense and ball hog offence. In some ways i can’t blame him too much because the team will lose no matter that he does so might as well get his numbers and get paid.

[Seventyniner]

I do wonder if the Pistons' complete inep ude has kept the tanking spotlight off the Spurs to an extent. 4-23 is horrible, but at least it isn't 25 straight losses!

[MannyIsGod]

Yes. This shouldn't even be debatable. There's likely no player on this team outside of Wemby that will be a part of this team the next time they are contenders. And you can see it out there on the court. There are players with talent but they have absolutely no clue on how to play winning basketball and their dominant roles on losing teams have inflated their sense of worth. This holds true for Devin more than any other player out there.

[The Truth #6]

Responding to Scott--

Pop has been coaching so long and has unprecedented job security, so I think it's difficult to find comparisons. Before VW, Pop made comments of setting the team up for the next person. Now with VW, who knows when he wants to leave. He may like the ability to travel and hang out with basketball people and this is already his version of semi-retirement. And so to me it was never senility, but too strongly now accepting the rebuild and basically giving up on coaching/yelling so he can be a nice guy now.

Anyway, just speculating.

[Tyronn Lue]

The pregame press conference with Pop yesterday was informative, but not surprising. You can see that Pop knows what he has, but he's gaslighting the room with comments about Victor being young and learning from film. I don't know who's asking the question, some Chicago writer that Pop seems familiar with, but he asks some questions the SA writers seem either to stupid or chicken to ask.

[Degoat]

I think tanking is bad, once you have your guy (wemby) it’s time to start surrounding him with the right pieces! If it takes you a whole season to figure that out as a front office and coaching staff you’re not very good at your job lol

say we get a top 3 pick again the same excuse next year will be about finding guys spots on the court, where they like the ball, young, and learning etc…

[scott]

Responding to Scott--

Pop has been coaching so long and has unprecedented job security, so I think it's difficult to find comparisons. Before VW, Pop made comments of setting the team up for the next person. Now with VW, who knows when he wants to leave. He may like the ability to travel and hang out with basketball people and this is already his version of semi-retirement. And so to me it was never senility, but too strongly now accepting the rebuild and basically giving up on coaching/yelling so he can be a nice guy now.

Anyway, just speculating.

Yeah, Pop's (earned) bona fides give him an unprecedented level of rope... but that's on the Spurs ownership for not having a backbone. Even in New England there are rumors that they could be moving on from Bill Belichick this offseason, and that is the most direct comparison I can think of. The parallel's are pretty obvious amongst these two coaching GOATS, despite being in different sports. One group seems content to just let the coach do whatever he wants, consequences be damned, whereas the other franchise still has a hunger for excellence and winning and will do what is necessary to keep progress moving forward.

There is a collective lack of self-awareness here by both Pop and the Holts. Wright gets a pass here as GM (For this particular situation) because as GM he is responsible for holding the Coach to account, but he reports to the President of Basketball Ops who happens to be said Coach.

[Tyronn Lue]

Yeah, Pop's (earned) bona fides give him an unprecedented level of rope... but that's on the Spurs ownership for not having a backbone. Even in New England there are rumors that they could be moving on from Bill Belichick this offseason, and that is the most direct comparison I can think of. The parallel's are pretty obvious amongst these two coaching GOATS, despite being in different sports. One group seems content to just let the coach do whatever he wants, consequences be damned, whereas the other franchise still has a hunger for excellence and winning and will do what is necessary to keep progress moving forward.

There is a collective lack of self-awareness here by both Pop and the Holts. Wright gets a pass here as GM (For this particular situation) because as GM he is responsible for holding the Coach to account, but he reports to the President of Basketball Ops who happens to be said Coach.

I remember when Jerry Sloan was let go. That was not a dignified exit for him. All it takes is for the chain of command to be broken and an unknown inserted, now the good old boy network is compromised. Pop and RC could be out.