Rank the best SG in the league...

[ElNono]

This thread brought up by some commentary on a different thread. While perusing the SG numbers, I was pretty amazed how shitty the position has become. This is a position that in it's heyday had guys like Kobe, T-Mac, Vince Carter, Manu, Wade, Joe Johnson... dominating players.

Here's some names taken from top 10 PER and RPM, feel free to add your own:

James Harden
DeMar DeRozan
Jimmy Butler
Dwyane Wade
Klay Thompson
Manu Ginobili
J.J. Redick
Tyreke Evans
Lou Williams
C.J. McCollum
Victor Oladipo
Khris Middleton
Rodney Hood
J.R. Smith
Kyle Korver
Monta Ellis
Wesley Matthews
Danny Green

[Kawhitstorm]

Jimmy Butler is the best two-way SG in the league when healthy.:wakeup

[ElNono]

Jimmy Butler is the best two-way SG in the league when healthy.:wakeup

He's an interesting case. His defense has taken a nosedive since his offensive role has increased.

[PopTheGOAT]

Jimmy Butler is the best two-way SG in the league when healthy.:wakeup
I'd take him over anyone else on that list, then Klay

[SAGirl]

He's an interesting case. His defense has taken a nosedive since his offensive role has increased.
Their team defense has suffered too bc of injuries and roster changes, but Idobt watch him and he's been carrying some cancers.

[ElNono]

I really like C.J. McCollum personally, as far as having a bright future, if he remains injury free, tbh...

[elemento]

Hood seems to have a nice future as well. For SGs still in their rookie contracts, he is the player I like the most.

[Kawhitstorm]

He's an interesting case. His defense has taken a nosedive since his offensive role has increased.

He held LeBron to 39% shooting in last year's playoffs when LeBron actually had a HEALTHY Kyrie. (The Bulls fell apart when Pau got injured midway through the series, Gm 3)

6NZ9szS76yQ

[apalisoc_9]

Harden
Butler
Thompson
Derozan
Reddick
Khris Middleton
CJ Mccolum
Danny Green
Manu Ginobili
Monta Ellis

The rest i dont give a shot about.

Rank really depends om multiple things..Manu is probably still the third guy you want to give the ball to in crunch situations.though.

[Kawhitstorm]

Harden

Cyam1FrldMk

[Obstructed_View]

And to think, center and shooting guard used to be the glamour positions in the NBA.

[ElNono]

He held LeBron to 39% shooting in last year's playoffs when LeBron actually had a HEALTHY Kyrie. (The Bulls fell apart when Pau got injured midway through the series, Gm 3)

He doesn't do it every night though. His defensive RPM is lower than Kyle Korver and Andre fucking Roberson. It's not really a knock in the sense that it's really rare you can sustain that level on both ends when you increase the workload and usage so much. Only a few truly great players can really pull off playing 100% on both ends (ie: Kawhi).

[Cry Havoc]

And to think, center and shooting guard used to be the glamour positions in the NBA.

SG is, Jordan aside, the weakest position in the history of the NBA.

When the 12th best player ever merits consideration for the #2 spot in a position, you know it's a thin crop of talent to choose from.

[apalisoc_9]

Cyam1FrldMk

I had butler at 1 a few months back..im just juggling between the two.

I think that Harden is so cancerous of a player that i wouldnt have trouble putting him at 2..right now i probably still have him at one though.

If Derozan can ever kill his hero ball tendencies hed up there...his hero ball game is probably the worst out of butler, harden and him.

I forgot to add wade...wade at this point is just an old man stat padding and ruining the franchise chance of winning. I dont know how to rate a player like that.

[SpursFan86]

Butler's defense definitely took a noticeable hit once his offensive role grew...he even admitted as much himself: http://espn.go.com/chicago/nba/story/_/id/12280131/jimmy-butler-blame-chicago-bulls-scuffling-defense

2015: 0.43 DRPM, opponents shot 4% better than their average against him
2016: 0.91 DRPM, opponents are shooting 1.4% better than their average against him

Anyways, as much as I dislike him, I still have Harden at #1. Butler is a fairly close 2nd.

[Obstructed_View]

SG is, Jordan aside, the weakest position in the history of the NBA.

When the 12th best player ever merits consideration for the #2 spot in a position, you know it's a thin crop of talent to choose from.

Not sure about your logic here. There are only two guards in the top ten, one of whom was the size of Karl Malone. It's a big man's game. Doesn't mean there was a shortage of talent in back courts.

[Kawhitstorm]

If Derozan can ever kill his hero ball tendencies hed up there...his hero ball game is probably the worst out of butler, harden and him.

DeRozan is a TERRIBLE defender, Joe Johnson ate him alive in 2014.:lol

2hpBRIx-iRg

[DeRozan m8]

What would be worse though?

Watching Danny suck?

Or having to watch Harden regularly?

[TheGreatYacht]

1) Jimmy Butler
2) James Har_en
3) DeMar DeRozan
4) Klay Thompson
5) CJ McCollum
6) Dwyane Wade
7) Avery Bradley
8) Kris Middleton
9) Bradley Beal
10) Jordan Clarkson
11) Rodney Hood
12) Devin Booker
13) Kentavious Caldwell-Pope
14) Danny Green
15) JJ Redick
16) Victor Oladipo
17) Monta Ellis
18) Manu Ginobili
19) Wesley Matthews
20) Gets really ugly from here :lol ... Uh, Joe Johnson?

[MultiTroll]

1. Jimmy Butler
2. Healthy GNob

[cjw]

LOL @ anyone putting JJ Redick outside top 5-10. He's on an absolute tear and is what stirs the drink that is the Clippers. Klay wishes he shot as well as JJ (yes, usage is different)

[spurraider21]

Kawhitstorm why u always put up highlights of 1 game to prove a>b

[apalisoc_9]

LOL @ anyone putting JJ Redick outside top 5-10. He's on an absolute tear and is what stirs the drink that is the Clippers. Klay wishes he shot as well as JJ (yes, usage is different)

Yeah :lol

Can't expect everyone to follow the association as closely though

[Gummi Clutch]

tbh, I think Harden is easy #1, set apart from those guys even with bad D. Dude is an offensive juggernaut

[Gummi Clutch]

always nice to see the OKC cucks get exposed :lol


But back to Harden, when a guy puts up 41 easy like that he's clearly above the rest. Everybody else would jizz their pants if Klay/Butler got numbers like that routinely.

[will_spurs]

14) Danny Green
15) JJ Redick

:lol

[TheGreatYacht]

:lol
I trust Danny will bring it against the Dubs/Thunder, tbh.

If he doesn't then that'll drop him to #17 above GNob

[will_spurs]

I trust Danny will bring it against the Dubs/Thunder, tbh.

If he doesn't then that'll drop him to #17 above GNob

Redick is averaging 16.5ppg and leading the league in 3P%. He's miles ahead of Danny "borderline D-leaguer" Green this season.

[steeledl]

Kawhitstorm (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=49655) why u always put up highlights of 1 game to prove a>b




Anecdotal evidence can't be trumped. To be honest most of the metrics in basketball are also extremely flawed...... The eye test usually is most reliable if you can abandon your bias about the game... Which is harder for some .

[dbestpro]

If they ever do move Green it would be better to move Leonard to SG as it would be easier to find a good SF that a good SG replacement.

[Tully365]

Harden is fool's gold to me.... Mediocre FG% (43%), mediocre 3pt% (34.4%), lots of turnovers, no defense.... a high usage rate player who's useless 50% of the time... plus he sets the tone for the rest of the team with the idea that defense doesn't matter too much... I understand why many think he's fun to watch, but I'm not a fan...

[Kawhitstorm]

Kawhitstorm (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=49655) why u always put up highlights of 1 game to prove a>b

I didn't put a clip of one possession dummy, if you need a career highlight then hire a video coordinator.

[ElNono]

I like Reddick, but how is his defense though? He doesn't strike me as a guy that plays both ends...

[ElNono]

To be honest most of the metrics in basketball are also extremely flawed...... The eye test usually is most reliable if you can abandon your bias about the game... Which is harder for some .

Is there a more ignorant statement in this day and age, tbh? :lmao

Even the Spurs are blowing money left and right on statisticians and leading edge analytic guys...


apalisoc_9
Chinook
HarlemHeat37

[TD 21]

I realize McGrady and Johnson played plenty of shooting guard (Pierce, too, before Allen was acquired) and as such, should obviously be in any discussion about the top ones from that era, but they were no more shooting guards than Duncan and Gasol were power forwards.

The same goes for Butler, Middleton and Hood. They only primarily play the position based on what's best for their respective teams.


As cancerous a style as he may play and as defenseless as he is, Harden is still clearly the best. Excluding future Hall-of-Famers (Bryant, Wade, Ginobili, probably Carter), he's the only Hall-of-Fame talent. If the Warriors go on to become a dynasty, Thompson might get in just based on that, but he's not a Hall-of-Fame player on his own volition.



I like Reddick, but how is his defense though? He doesn't strike me as a guy that plays both ends...

Heady team defender and competitive individual one, but too physically limited to be anything more than competent.

[spurraider21]

Kawhitstorm (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=49655) why u always put up highlights of 1 game to prove a>b


I didn't put a clip of one possession dummy, if you need a career highlight then hire a video coordinator.
lol reading comprehension

[apalisoc_9]

Is there a more ignorant statement in this day and age, tbh? :lmao

Even the Spurs are blowing money left and right on statisticians and leading edge analytic guys...


apalisoc_9
Chinook
HarlemHeat37

Wow, that comment was so dumb. Not to take anything away from myself, but I havent really sank deep into analytics as chinook and Harlem. The basic stuff needs an hour or two for complete understanding and then understanding how these metrics fall in line with style, personel, fundamentals, etc is a on a different level. I wish someone out there can release a book full of advanced stuff..will make things easier to understand.

[steeledl]

Is there a more ignorant statement in this day and age, tbh? :lmao

Even the Spurs are blowing money left and right on statisticians and leading edge analytic guys...


apalisoc_9 (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=11260)
Chinook (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=37557)
HarlemHeat37 (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=11597)

It has its place for front office purposes and building a cohesive team that is well balanced. However, when used to make arguments it is often useless as people pick and choose stats that fit their agenda. I mean, the other night you used advanced statistics to tell me we had the 4th and 7th best 2 guards in the league which is completely unreasonable but proves my point. Basketball is such a dynamic game with so many moving parts .... its not like as easy to isolate value in numbers the way it is in baseball.

[ElNono]

As cancerous a style as he may play and as defenseless as he is, Harden is still clearly the best. Excluding future Hall-of-Famers (Bryant, Wade, Ginobili, probably Carter), he's the only Hall-of-Fame talent. If the Warriors go on to become a dynasty, Thompson might get in just based on that, but he's not a Hall-of-Fame player on his own volition.

Yeah, that's what I was illustrating. Plus, in their prime at least, guys like Bryant, Manu and Wade were all very solid defenders. Nowadays you get very talented offensive players, but the other side of the ball is a bit forgotten, tbh...

[ElNono]

It has its place for front office purposes and building a cohesive team that is well balanced. However, when used to make arguments it is often useless as people pick and choose stats that fit their agenda. I mean, the other night you used advanced statistics to tell me we had the 4th and 7th best 2 guards in the league which is completely unreasonable but proves my point. Basketball is such a dynamic game with so many moving parts .... its not like as easy to isolate value in numbers the way it is in baseball.

Nah, you said we were very thin at SG, and I brought up not one but two advanced stats mentioning we have at least one SG in the top 10 of the league. It might not be much, but league-wide the quality of SG has declined dramatically.

I agree that fans sometimes cherry pick to try to make points/troll, but that's far from antiquated stuff like "eye test"... teams like the Knicks do "eye test" and, well, there they are...

[Cry Havoc]

Not sure about your logic here. There are only two guards in the top ten, one of whom was the size of Karl Malone. It's a big man's game. Doesn't mean there was a shortage of talent in back courts.

Yes, but if you look down the list of PGs, there have been a lot more incredible 1s than there have been 2s. Though you're right, having #2 for the position at #12 is probably not a good measure. Still, the SGs are pretty weak overall. Many more dominant 1s and 3s.

[spurraider21]

redick has had a great year but i'd still take middleton over anybody not named butler. harden has more talent but he's a cancer. its hard to rank talented cancers appropriately

[Kawhitstorm]

lol reading comprehension

IDIOT, my point was that one game is enough for you when we are talking about All-Star players going at it in a playoff game without hitting fluke shots. I posted the video to PROVE that the numbers weren't lying. Butler had LeBron huffing & puffing throughout the series. If anything, LeBron hit a desperation 3 to win Gm 4.

If I post a clip of one possession then you would have a point but if you want me to post a CAREER compilation of their matchups then I suggest you lock yourself in the NBA archive center & holla at me when you have an ACTUAL rebuttal instead of bitching.

[spurraider21]

IDIOT, my point was that one game is enough for you when we are talking about All-Star players going at it in a playoff game without hitting fluke shots. I posted the video to PROVE that the numbers weren't lying. Butler had LeBron huffing & puffing throughout the series. If anything, LeBron hit a desperation 3 to win Gm 4.

If I post a clip of one possession then you would have a point but if you want me to post a CAREER compilation of their matchups then I suggest you lock yourself in the NBA archive center & holla at me when you have an ACTUAL rebuttal instead of bitching.
lol, especially when you conveniently choose which one game matters :lmao

[SAGirl]

redick has had a great year but i'd still take middleton over anybody not named butler. harden has more talent but he's a cancer. its hard to rank talented cancers appropriately
I'll go with you. I also like Batum, who is being played as a SG this season.
As talented a scorer as Harden is, he's a cancer and plays no defense. You can't win ultimately like that and he's allowed to coast more than most bc of the weakness at the position. Still when Danny Green is in a down season and yet he torches Harden every time they meet, you know he's awful.
I like young kids like Devin Booker and MCCollum. Of the two I like Booker more bc he stands out in a terrible Suns team that has no one else to take attention away from him and he's so young. There are a few other kids I like but they are young and are not going to rank high on this list yet.

[Kawhitstorm]

lol, especially when you conveniently choose which one game matters :lmao

LeBron shot 39% (TS: 46%:lol) & committed 27 turnovers in 6 games while being guarded 1-on-1 by Butler; not to mention Kyrie was actually HEALTHY & available. Butler himself wasn't bad on the other end either as he averaged 21/5/2 w/ a TS of 52% & only committing 7 turnovers in the ENTIRE series: http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2015-nba-eastern-conference-semifinals-bulls-vs-cavaliers.html

LeBron proceeded to destroy Carroll & the Hawks in the ECF despite BOTH Kyrie/Love being out for the series........I wonder why?:rolleyes

If 2015 isn't enough for you then 2013 also happened when LeBron was at his PEAK & Butler was just a 2nd year players:

LHwMkn6tvnE

[spurraider21]

you conveniently choose one youtube video of harden vs butler, too, for instance (not that i disagree on butler>harden, specifically). you do this all the time in other threads too, it's pretty shallow analysis

for example, look at this post :lol...http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=258686&p=8497909&viewfull=1#post8497909

you just hand picked games that fit a narrative

[Kawhitstorm]

you conveniently choose one youtube video of harden vs butler, too, for instance (not that i disagree on butler>harden, specifically). you do this all the time in other threads too, it's pretty shallow analysis

for example, look at this post :lol...http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=258686&p=8497909&viewfull=1#post8497909

you just hand picked games that fit a narrative

Dumb ass, I'm not posting games where EITHER player is half-assing. If a numb nut like Benoit (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=49561) makes a blanket statement then of course I'm going to nit-picking THEIR narratives by providing video PROOF b/c they can't deny it.

Lebron/Butler went at it in two different playoff series & Butler gave him hell not specifically for one game but for the duration of each series. It's not like LeBron was mailing it in ala 2011 Finals.

[spurraider21]

Dumb ass, I'm not posting games where EITHER player is half-assing. If a numb nut like Benoit (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=49561) makes a blanket statement then of course I'm going to nit-picking THEIR narratives by providing video PROOF b/c they can't deny it.

Lebron/Butler went at it in two different playoff series & Butler gave him hell not specifically for one game but for the duration of each series. It's not like LeBron was mailing it in ala 2011 Finals.
http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/2817947/billbored.gif

[Obstructed_View]

Yes, but if you look down the list of PGs, there have been a lot more incredible 1s than there have been 2s. Though you're right, having #2 for the position at #12 is probably not a good measure. Still, the SGs are pretty weak overall. Many more dominant 1s and 3s.

And as shooting guards go, there's rightfully a bigger gap between 1 and 2 than there is between 2 and the rest of the top 10. Lakerfan's never-ending quest to put Kobe in the same sentence with Jordan has made the discussion kind of a big joke.l

[Dro210]

To be honest most of the metrics in basketball are also extremely flawed...... The eye test usually is most reliable if you can abandon your bias about the game... Which is harder for some .

There's a balance, but I agree :tu it's people with a shitty eye for the game that'll try to tell you that What you're actually seeing on the floor with your own eyes is unimportant. :lol



I'll go with you. I also like Batum, who is being played as a SG this season.
As talented a scorer as Harden is, he's a cancer and plays no defense. You can't win ultimately like that and he's allowed to coast more than most bc of the weakness at the position. Still when Danny Green is in a down season and yet he torches Harden every time they meet, you know he's awful.
I like young kids like Devin Booker and MCCollum. Of the two I like Booker more bc he stands out in a terrible Suns team that has no one else to take attention away from him and he's so young. There are a few other kids I like but they are young and are not going to rank high on this list yet.

Props on being the only person to mention Booker. :tu

[Kawhitstorm]

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/2817947/billbored.gif

So, you ain't got the answers.:sleep

[Dro210]

LeBron shot 39% (TS: 46%:lol) & committed 27 turnovers in 6 games while being guarded 1-on-1 by Butler; not to mention Kyrie was actually HEALTHY & available. Butler himself wasn't bad on the other end either as he averaged 21/5/2 w/ a TS of 52% & only committing 7 turnovers in the ENTIRE series: http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2015-nba-eastern-conference-semifinals-bulls-vs-cavaliers.html

LeBron proceeded to destroy Carroll & the Hawks in the ECF despite BOTH Kyrie/Love being out for the series........I wonder why?:rolleyes

I agree with you on Butler... but a part of the reason why LeBron was so much better was straight because those guys were out, so that parts irrelevant. He and the Cavs are better without either one of 'em. Neither can play defense worth a single shit, and neither should have the ball over LeBron on the other end anyway. Kyrie is a scorer with handles, not a PG. They're just huge negatives when paired with somebody like him. LeBron knows it. That's why he's halfway losing his mind, he fucked up by going back. Probably wishes he could get Wiggins back for Love everyday.

[Brazil]

Wow, that comment was so dumb. Not to take anything away from myself, but I havent really sank deep into analytics as chinook and Harlem. The basic stuff needs an hour or two for complete understanding and then understanding how these metrics fall in line with style, personel, fundamentals, etc is a on a different level. I wish someone out there can release a book full of advanced stuff..will make things easier to understand.

This forum needs a thread with main metrics tbh with a bit of explanation and their pros and cons but I doubt anyone would have time for that and above all would be sufficiently unbiased to dig fairly into the flaws