Wisconsin Unions

[Sec24Row7]

http://www.sabinabecker.com/images/simpsons-haha.jpg

[Yonivore]

Couldn't have happened to a nicer bunch of people.

[ChumpDumper]

What happened to the firefighter and police unions?

[Sec24Row7]

What happened to the firefighter and police unions?

If they just stripped the language from the original bill and passed it... probably nothing.

[ChumpDumper]

If they just stripped the language from the original bill and passed it... probably nothing.Oh, so it was just a political gambit and not really about saving any money at all.

OK.

[Sec24Row7]

I really don't care... I just think it is funny to see unions lose after throwing such a double rainbow hissy fit for three weeks.

[baseline bum]

This thread should have been titled Middle Class and then the Ha-Ha pic.

[ChumpDumper]

I really don't care... I just think it is funny to see unions lose after throwing such a double rainbow hissy fit for three weeks.The unions you don't like for political reasons.

OK.

[Yonivore]

What happened to the firefighter and police unions?
I don't know, did they collectively bargain away jobs of the Firefighter or Peace Officer of the Year?

Maybe the Teacher's union needed busting.


How Collective Bargaining Forced Milwaukee to Fire a Teacher of the Year (http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/how-collective-bargaining-forced-milwaukee-fire-teacher-year_553779.html)

But, in a more direct response to your question; I suspect all public employee unions are on the wane. Police and Firefighter Unions, as well. It's just a matter of time.

[Sec24Row7]

This thread should have been titled Middle Class and then the Ha-Ha pic.

Are all the middle class public school teachers in Wisconsin?

[ChumpDumper]

I don't know, did they collectively bargain away jobs of the Firefighter or Peace Officer of the Year?

Maybe the Teacher's union needed busting.


How Collective Bargaining Forced Milwaukee to Fire a Teacher of the Year (http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/how-collective-bargaining-forced-milwaukee-fire-teacher-year_553779.html)

But, in a more direct response to your question; I suspect all public employee unions are on the wane. Police and Firefighter Unions, as well. It's just a matter of time.So why leave them alone during this time of terrible terrible terrible crisis?

[ChumpDumper]

Are all the middle class public school teachers in Wisconsin?No because Wisconsin public school teachers are upper class snobs that don't work at all.

[DarrinS]

So, they can still collectively bargain for their salary, but not for how much they pay toward their pensions and their health care benefits (both still substantially less than what private sector employees pay).


Poor public union workers.

:violin

[ChumpDumper]

So, they can still collectively bargain for their salary, but not for how much they pay toward their pensions and their health care benefits (both still substantially less than what private sector employees pay).


Poor public union workers.

:violinBut police and firefighters still can.

Why is that?

[DarrinS]

But police and firefighters still can.

Why is that?


I don't know. Why?

[ChumpDumper]

I don't know. Why?That's what I want to know.

[DarrinS]

That's what I want to know.


So you don't know? Ok.


You keep bringing it up, like it's an important point, but you never elaborate.

[ChumpDumper]

So you don't know? Ok.I didn't say I did.

Ok.

Seems pretty stupid to demonize one public union while leaving others untouched.

[ChumpDumper]

So you don't know? Ok.


You keep bringing it up, like it's an important point, but you never elaborate.Why treat them differently?

[Yonivore]

What's the matter, Chumpy? Can't get anyone to run down the rabbit hole with you?

[ChumpDumper]

You can't explain it either.

No one can.

I'm not surprised.

[Yonivore]

The question was rhetorical.

[ChumpDumper]

Mine wasn't.

And you still can't explain it.

[Nbadan]

If arguing it was all about the budget for weeks, the WI wing-nuts decide to cut all the budget items off the bill and score political points by union busting....

:lmao

[Nbadan]

This could be good....

Live stream at Wisconsin capitol building now!

http://www.livestream.com/theuptake

[Wild Cobra]

So you don't know? Ok.


You keep bringing it up, like it's an important point, but you never elaborate.
No shit. I never saw anyone elaborate. Maybe the police and fire already contribute their own money towards retirement and health care.

Anyone know?

[Wild Cobra]

A quick search shows me if the article I found was correct, that the "men in uniform" will be paying 6% of their health care costs, but their retirement is untouched. They will still pay very little towards retirement.

Walker’s Bill Gives Wisconsin Police a Pass on Pension Payments (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-02-25/walker-says-public-safety-means-wisconsin-cops-keep-collective-bargaining.html); 2/24/11

[Wild Cobra]

If arguing it was all about the budget for weeks, the WI wing-nuts decide to cut all the budget items off the bill and score political points by union busting....

:lmao
They needed a quorum for bills that included spending. By removing the items with spending, they could vote without the democrats. I think the democrats better come back before the republicans do this with some other subject matter.

[Nbadan]

They needed a quorum for bills that included spending. By removing the items with spending, they could vote with the democrats. I think the democrats better come back before the republicans do this with some other subject matter.

By removing the items with spending they exposed themselves and their true motives...it was never about the budget, it is about hurting unions, teachers, police, firemen, and everyone who works an honest days labor and expects an honest day's pay...

[Yonivore]

If arguing it was all about the budget for weeks, the WI wing-nuts decide to cut all the budget items off the bill and score political points by union busting....

:lmao
Just because it isn't a fiscal bill doesn't mean it doesn't have a fiscal impact. Removing the ability to collectively bargain on all but salary -- and that, within narrowly defined parameters -- will stop the bloated and unsustainable build up of retirement and health benefits for which those who are affected by this legislation pay next to nothing.

It doesn't change the benefits much but, at least they'll be paying for some of it out of their own pockets for a change.

[Yonivore]

By removing the items with spending they exposed themselves and their true motives...it was never about the budget, it is about hurting unions, teachers, police, firemen, and everyone who works an honest days labor and expects an honest day's pay...
It's all about the budget. The public employees union had collectively bargained their way into a plum benefits that they paid nothing for and that are unsustainable, to boot.

This fixes that. It is a budget bill. It's just not spending legislation -- which would have required a quorum. Maybe the Democrats will come out of hiding to vote on the rest of the package now.

[Nbadan]

Just because it isn't a fiscal bill doesn't mean it doesn't have a fiscal impact. Removing the ability to collectively bargain on all but salary -- and that, within narrowly defined parameters -- will stop the bloated and unsustainable build up of retirement and health benefits for which those who are affected by this legislation pay next to nothing.

It doesn't change the benefits much but, at least they'll be paying for some of it out of their own pockets for a change.

they paid it all out of their own pockets, just because Walker and the wingnuts want to steal people retirement so that they can give more taxcuts to the rich doesn't change that....all this could be a political ploy though since the legal challenges to this bill are already piling up and could lead to a Walker recall in January....


Opponents of the legislation have argued that the rushed and nocturnal nature of the proceedings actually violated the Wisconsin Open Meetings Law. The statute requires that "“all meetings of all state and local governmental bodies shall be publicly held in places reasonably accessible to members of the public and shall be open to all citizens at all times unless otherwise expressly provided by law.” Part of that statute is a 24-hour notice requirement.

Link (http://politics.gather.com/viewArticle.action?articleId=281474979128957)

[Yonivore]

they paid it all out of their own pockets, just because Walker and the wingnuts want to steal people retirement so that they can give more taxcuts to the rich doesn't change that....all this could be a political ploy though since the legal challenges to this bill are already piling up and could lead to a Walker recall in January....
That's unintelligible; try again. Who paid all of what out of their own pockets? How is Walker stealing their retirement just by asking them to contribute more -- but, still less that most normal workers in Wisconsin -- or America, for that matter?

Good luck with the legal challenges and recall. Collective bargaining isn't a right...no matter how loud you scream it. And, if Walker gets recalled, Wisconsin gets what they deserve.

[Wild Cobra]

By removing the items with spending they exposed themselves and their true motives...it was never about the budget, it is about hurting unions, teachers, police, firemen, and everyone who works an honest days labor and expects an honest day's pay...
No, that is your assumed motive. maybe they really do want to lower their costs. Governments cannot keep spending tax payer dollars they don't have.

Where would you cut?

[Wild Cobra]

That's unintelligible; try again. Who paid all of what out of their own pockets? How is Walker stealing their retirement just by asking them to contribute more -- but, still less that most normal workers in Wisconsin -- or America, for that matter?

Good luck with the legal challenges and recall. Collective bargaining isn't a right...no matter how loud you scream it. And, if Walker gets recalled, Wisconsin gets what they deserve.
Dan's a lost cause. He's proving to go the way of Boutons with that post.

Now that they have to contribute to their benefits, maybe they will have multiple benefit options. Choose a lower level for little or no contribution matching, to a Cadillac plan where they pay maybe 6% of it's cost.

[Nbadan]

facts have never been your friend have they?


The study looks at total compensation — pay and benefits together — and found that public workers earn 4.8 percent less than private sector employees with the same qualifications and traits doing similar jobs.

Average compensation for public workers is higher because the jobs they do — such as teaching — require a relatively high level of education, and a higher education is one of the main factors that drives wages up, said Ethan Pollack, a senior policy analyst at the institute. Yet the typical Wisconsin public sector employee with a bachelor's degree makes less than $62,000, compared to more than $82,000 in the private sector, Pollack said.

Link (http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/govt-and-politics/article_d4093848-3c92-11e0-ac18-001cc4c03286.html)

going against the majority will of voters always has good political turn-out....for the opposing party...

[Yonivore]

facts have never been your friend have they?



Link (http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/govt-and-politics/article_d4093848-3c92-11e0-ac18-001cc4c03286.html)

going against the majority will of voters always has good political turn-out....for the opposing party...




Gov. Scott Walker argues that public employees can sacrifice more of their paychecks for health insurance and retirement because they pay so little for those benefits compared to workers at private companies.

Walker is correct about the disparity [so, let's draw your attention away from the subject by talking about something Walker is not even trying to affect]

[Capt Bringdown]

http://www.truthout.org/files/images/TomTomorrow3-9.png

[Nbadan]

Wing-nuts hate having their lies exposed.....


Pulitzer Prize winning tax reporter, David Cay Johnston, has written a brilliant piece for tax.com exposing the truth about who really pays for the pension and benefits for public employees in Wisconsin.

Gov. Scott Walker says he wants state workers covered by collective bargaining agreements to “contribute more” to their pension and health insurance plans. Accepting Gov. Walker’ s assertions as fact, and failing to check, creates the impression that somehow the workers are getting something extra, a gift from taxpayers. They are not. Out of every dollar that funds Wisconsin’ s pension and health insurance plans for state workers, 100 cents comes from the state workers.

Via tax.com

How can this be possible?

Simple. The pension plan is the direct result of deferred compensation- money that employees would have been paid as cash salary but choose, instead, to have placed in the state operated pension fund where the money can be professionally invested (at a lower cost of management) for the future.

Many of us are familiar with the concept of deferred compensation from reading about the latest multi-million dollar deal with some professional athlete. As a means of allowing their ball club to have enough money to operate, lowering their own tax obligations and for other benefits, ball players often defer payment of money they are to be paid to a later date. In the meantime, that money is invested for the ball player’s benefit and then paid over at the time and in the manner agreed to in the contract between the parties.

forbes (http://blogs.forbes.com/rickungar/2011/02/25/the-wisconsin-lie-exposed-taxpayers-actually-contribute-nothing-to-public-employee-pensions/?utm_source=alertsnewpost&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=20110225)

As I said, facts have never been Yoni and Wyle Coyote's friend...

[Nbadan]

Truth is, there never was a budget crisis in WI until Walker came along...

Wsconsin Gov. Walker Ginned Up Budget Shortfall To Undercut Worker Rights
February 17, 2011, 1:47PM


Wisconsin's new Republican governor has framed his assault on public worker's collective bargaining rights as a needed measure of fiscal austerity during tough times.

The reality is radically different. Unlike true austerity measures -- service rollbacks, furloughs, and other temporary measures that cause pain but save money -- rolling back worker's bargaining rights by itself saves almost nothing on its own. But Walker's doing it anyhow, to knock down a barrier and allow him to cut state employee benefits immediately.

Furthermore, this broadside comes less than a month after the state's fiscal bureau -- the Wisconsin equivalent of the Congressional Budget Office -- concluded that Wisconsin isn't even in need of austerity measures, and could conclude the fiscal year with a surplus. In fact, they say that the current budget shortfall is a direct result of tax cut policies Walker enacted in his first days in office.

"Walker was not forced into a budget repair bill by circumstances beyond he control," says Jack Norman, research director at the Institute for Wisconsin Future -- a public interest think tank. "He wanted a budget repair bill and forced it by pushing through tax cuts... so he could rush through these other changes."

Talking point memo (http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/02/wisconsin-gov-walker-ginned-up-budget-shortfall-to-undercut-worker-rights.php?ref=fpa)

In other words, that buffoon created this problem precisely so he could then attack unions and the middle class. Typical wing-nut strategy - first break it, then hurt someone poor over it.

[Wild Cobra]

facts have never been your friend have they?



Link (http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/govt-and-politics/article_d4093848-3c92-11e0-ac18-001cc4c03286.html)

going against the majority will of voters always has good political turn-out....for the opposing party...

Dan, there are several reasons for that. Remember, statistics don't make facts.

[Wild Cobra]

Wing-nuts hate having their lies exposed.....



forbes (http://blogs.forbes.com/rickungar/2011/02/25/the-wisconsin-lie-exposed-taxpayers-actually-contribute-nothing-to-public-employee-pensions/?utm_source=alertsnewpost&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=20110225)

As I said, facts have never been Yoni and Wyle Coyote's friend...
We went over that already. I linked the contract when it was put out. Your article is incorrect in some aspects. Sure, that money on paper is 100% of the fund, but the imaginary fund is being drained faster than it's filling. When it's depleted, tax payers will make up the difference.

Read the contract I linked before.

[Nbadan]

So the imaginery fund is being imaginery drained and someday could be imaginery depleted....got it....or the state want's to renig on its promise to public service employees because Walker depleted the state's funds with unfunded tax cuts...

....which too choose, which too choose

[Wild Cobra]

So the imaginery fund is being imaginery drained and someday could be imaginery depleted....got it....or the state want's to renig on its promise to public service employees because Walker depleted the state's funds with unfunded tax cuts...

....which too choose, which too choose
OK, maybe the fund is real. I seriously doubt it. Most government agencies simply put the mo0ney into their general fund and pay out of the general fund. I can guarantee this however, the amount the contribute as employees will never cover, except with compound interest rates impossible over the long term, the amount they get to retire on.

So tell me genius. Where does the money come from? Out of thin air?

[Winehole23]

http://www.jsonline.com/news/statepolitics/118242814.html

[Nbadan]

http://www.jsonline.com/news/statepolitics/118242814.html

I think its pretty evident this vote violated the state's open meeting bi-laws...that alone calls for a revote...nevermind the legal challenges yet to come about whether there were fiscal changes still left in the bill after it was politically gutted by the state's wing-nuts...

[greyforest]

I didn't say I did.

Ok.

Seems pretty stupid to demonize one public union while leaving others untouched.

Kids don't vote. SOmeone didn't watch The Wire

[ChuckD]

But, in a more direct response to your question; I suspect all public employee unions are on the wane. Police and Firefighter Unions, as well. It's just a matter of time.

For once, I actually agree with something Yoni posted. It IS only a matter of time for them, and that was a good piece of strategy to leave them out of this round. After all, if they busted their unions, too, there would be no one to clear out the capitol building or make Demo lawmakers eat pavement when they don't produce their credentials quick enough. All they did by contributing to Walker's campaign was buy a little time.

First They came... - Pastor Martin Niemoller

First they came for the communists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.

Then they came for me
and there was no one left to speak out for me.

[DarrinS]

For once, I actually agree with something Yoni posted. It IS only a matter of time for them, and that was a good piece of strategy to leave them out of this round. After all, if they busted their unions, too, there would be no one to clear out the capitol building or make Demo lawmakers eat pavement when they don't produce their credentials quick enough. All they did by contributing to Walker's campaign was buy a little time.

First They came... - Pastor Martin Niemoller

First they came for the communists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.

Then they came for me
and there was no one left to speak out for me.



Oh, brother. :rolleyes

[ChumpDumper]

Oh, brother. :rolleyes:lol Glenn Beck uses that one all the time -- omitting the trade unions and commies, of course.

[ChuckD]

Oh, brother. :rolleyes

No need to roll your eyes. It's just the progession of classic divide and conquer strategy.

[MannyIsGod]

Four recall elections on the books. All GOP elections. This doubles the history of recall elections in Wisconsin.