Nash's agent calls Shaq a "hiccup"

[Jeremy]

"I know there are some financial constraints," Nash's agent, Bill Duffy, said. "Given that, Robert Sarver remains steadfast in his commitment to Steve and his belief that Steve can lead this organization to the top of the NBA. Steve believes that as well. I think there was a hiccup in the last year and a half, but they feel that can be corrected."

http://www.azcentral.com/sports/suns/articles/2009/07/20/20090720nash.html

[anonoftheinternets]

lol the big hiccup ...

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Anyone that might jeopardize Nash's career long absence from the NBA finals is considered a hiccup I guess.

[Culburn369]

"and he deferred $3 million of each year's salary to the two years after the contract expires."

I God's, but that is a reckless business strategy for Sarver to sign off on.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

"and he deferred $3 million of each year's salary to the two years after the contract expires."

I God's, but that is a reckless business strategy for Sarver to sign off on.


To quote Sarver himself, "I'm not one that thinks long term on anything."

[spursfan1000]

LOL at Nash being able to lead the Suns to the top, he can believe all he wants but it wont happen.

[Muser]

Pussy can't even say it himself.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Pussy can't even say it himself.


One thing Nash has perfected is hiding behind other people's skirt and letting them speak for him so they get all the blame.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

I wonder which of the following is going to happen:

1) da_suns_fan and Pauls931 create a retarded justification for this new thing
2) They just pretend this thread isn't here

I go with option 2.

[Spursfan092120]

I wonder which of the following is going to happen:

1) da_suns_fan and Pauls931 create a retarded justification for this new thing
2) They just pretend this thread isn't here

I go with option 2.
Haven't heard from them two in a bit, anyway.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Haven't heard from them two in a bit, anyway.


They have both posted either today or yesterday.

[Summers]

One thing Nash has perfected is hiding behind other people's skirt and letting them speak for him so they get all the blame.

It weirds me out that as a Suns fan you hate Nash so much.

[Findog]

Just for the sake of an exercise in devil's advocacy, Shaq got his #s and the team sucked. Maybe a different owner doesn't salary dump him for spare parts...but how do you improve defensively by trading Marion's ability to guard 4 positions for Shaq's ability to get murdered on the pic and roll, a play that is only run 90% of the time by 100% of all NBA teams?

I think the SSOL teams were fatally flawed...despite good individual defenders like Bell, Diaw and Marion, they routinely gave up 50%+ shooting nights, and you can't win a title that way. So I'm not saying they should've stayed pat, since the team couldn't win a championship and Marion was unhappy. Marion for Shaq was doomed from the start. Was Amare for KG ever offered by Minny? I don't want to criticize the Suns for a move that wasn't feasible, but I think they should've done something different than the Marion trade.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Just for the sake of an exercise in devil's advocacy, Shaq got his #s and the team sucked.


The team was 2-5 in the games Shaq missed, and would have been 0-7 if not for a fluke Matt Barnes game winner against the OKC Thunder and a Dwight Howard injury in the 2nd quarter. Maybe they sucked with Shaq but they were a lot shitter w/o Shaq.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

but how do you improve defensively by trading Marion's ability to guard 4 positions for Shaq's ability to get murdered on the pic and roll, a play that is only run 90% of the time by 100% of all NBA teams?


You figure that when Amare repeatedly bitches about playing center and says that if moved down to power forward he's be more active on defense, he'd be the one to step up his S/R defense since he's got the size and athleticism to do so.

I'm fuckin tired of hearing about the Suns like they actually had good pick and roll defense before the Shaq trade. Yeah, maybe it wasn't as bad as it was w/ Shaq, but it was still pretty fuckin terrible. The biggest reason the Suns suck at pick and roll defense is Steve Nash who makes no effort to fight through screens whatsoever and has refused to address his habit of leaving Amare and Shaq on an island to guard Tony Parker and Chris Paul. Steve Nash didn't take one iota of responsibility for how horrible this team was defensively this season, instead he blamed it on Shaq when he said, "Our big men aren't active enough."

[Findog]

The biggest reason the Suns suck at pick and roll defense is Steve Nash who makes no effort to fight through screens whatsoever and has refused to address his habit of leaving Amare and Shaq on an island to guard Tony Parker and Chris Paul. Steve Nash didn't take one iota of responsibility for how horrible this team was defensively this season, instead he blamed it on Shaq when he said, "Our big men aren't active enough."

Doesn't that mean that Nash should get his share of blame, so we're not excusing Shaq's laziness at showing on the p'n'r?

[Findog]

The team was 2-5 in the games Shaq missed, and would have been 0-7 if not for a fluke Matt Barnes game winner against the OKC Thunder and a Dwight Howard injury in the 2nd quarter. Maybe they sucked with Shaq but they were a lot shitter w/o Shaq.

You could also say they would be a lot shittier w/o Nash or w/o Amare. Their playoff chances died with Amare's eye injury...and I think the team would've been much worse off if Nash had gone down with an injury and forced to go with a PG by committee of Barbosa, Hill and Dragic.

The theory was that Shaq would improve their interior defense and wouldn't slow down their running game. In reality a bad defensive team became worse and for the most part Shaq gummed up the works on offense. At least in the regular season SSOL worked because you obliterate the need to be great on defense when you increase the # of possessions and turn it into a game of offensive efficiency. Turning them into a half-court team made them less dangerous on offense. Defense and half-court execution wins titles. Only under D'Antoni did they have some success with a hybrid approach of Shaq/SSOL. '

The net result is that Shawn Marion circa early 2008 has been turned into spare part garbage, a poor case of asset management.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Doesn't that mean that Nash should get his share of blame, so we're not excusing Shaq's laziness at showing on the p'n'r?


I watched every Suns game and I didn't see a lazy pick and roll defender, I saw a 330 pound center who tried his best but doesn't have the physical tools to guard the pick and roll. Big difference.

[mavsfan1000]

Giving up Marion for an over the hill Shaq on a team that relies totally on run and gun was a big hiccup. I agree. Shaq made their defense worse as well.

[Findog]

I watched every Suns game and I didn't see a lazy pick and roll defender, I saw a 330 pound center who tried his best but doesn't have the physical tools to guard the pick and roll. Big difference.

I don't think Nash has the physical tools or the lateral quickness to keep most guards in front of him. I understand your frustration that they extended this guy when they don't appear to have the tools to contend anytime soon, but I think like Shaq, he is still a very good, albeit very flawed, player.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

I think the team would've been much worse off if Nash had gone down with an injury and forced to go with a PG by committee of Barbosa, Hill and Dragic.


I never said I disagree with that.......I also never said I wanted them to keep Shaq......I know getting rid of Nash would make them a crappy team in the short term, but at this point I don't give a shit about the short term, I care about the long term.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

I don't think Nash has the physical tools or the lateral quickness to keep most guards in front of him.


His lack of natural ability is one thing, his selfish habit of ball hawking running around going for steals leaving his man open is a completely different thing.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

The net result is that Shawn Marion circa early 2008 has been turned into spare part garbage, a poor case of asset management.


Since Marion acted like a 3 year old and had hurt feelings over being told he wasn't a max contract player, he was gonna leave anyway.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Findog, maybe you're misunderstanding what I'm saying. I'm not saying trading Nash and keeping Shaq would have solved everything. I'm saying that their current plan of trading Shaq for nothing thinking it will be the greatest example of addition by subtraction in human history is retarded. If it were up to me Nash and Shaq would both be traded.

[Culburn369]

I watched every Suns game and I didn't see a lazy pick and roll defender, I saw a 330 pound center who tried his best but doesn't have the physical tools to guard the pick and roll. Big difference.

DUNCAN is correct here. It was awful. It bordered on like the comical. D'Antoni had Daddy chasin' the play all the way out to the 3 point line.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

DUNCAN is correct here. It was awful. It bordered on like the comical. D'Antoni had Daddy chasin' the play all the way out to the 3 point line.


Exactly. Shaq's had the same weakness his entire career. Don't blame him the team traded for him and pretended that those weaknesses didn't exist.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

And the difference is Shaq didn't constantly bitch about Nash the entire season. Shaq was the one mentoring the young players and putting on a smile for every game and giving his best. Nash was the one whining about not having fun and talking about how "emotionally draining" it was (exact words) to play with his teammates.

[TheMACHINE]

DoK is right...before Shaq the Suns were doing horrible. They never got out of the first round before he came. With Shaq, the suns got into the Finals.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

DoK is right...before Shaq the Suns were doing horrible. They never got out of the first round before he came. With Shaq, the suns got into the Finals.

Sorry that I'm capable of thinking beyond black and white retardedness unlike you. If you watched a decent number of their first 50 games during the 2007-2008 season and thought you were watching a championship caliber team, then you're retarded.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Of course the retarded band wagon Laker fan Machine isn't gonna respond to my post since he knows it's true.

[SenorSpur]

Dok,
I'm curious to know how Dragic is coming along?
Is he making any strides this summer?
Do you think he'll be the Suns PG of the future?

I ask this because I know how much they were salivating over the "slim" prospect of obtaining Steph Curry in the proposed Amare trade with GSW.

[Findog]

Since Marion acted like a 3 year old and had hurt feelings over being told he wasn't a max contract player, he was gonna leave anyway.

The point is that they went after the wrong piece in Shaq.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

The point is that they went after the wrong piece in Shaq.


My point is that they had to go all in with a bang or bust trade at that point.

[DPG21920]

They took a swing and missed. So what? It did not hamper them in any way. Could they have done better? Yes. They had to do something and it was a bold move that could have worked out better had the players bought in.

The mistake was not the trade imo, it is the moves being made in the draft and in FA and with extensions.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Findog, here's why the Shaq trade made sense. Yes, I know they had a good record 50+ games into the season at the time of the Shaq trade, I know their record after that was worse and they lost to the Spurs in 5 games, the team Shaq was supposed to help them against.

I also know all of the following games were put up against the Suns by big men over that 50 game stretch:

Ilgauskas: 22 points, 13 rebounds.......7 offensive
Shaq: 25 points, 10 rebounds........6 offensive
Howard: 33 points, 18 rebounds......7 offensive
Ming: 31 points, 13 rebounds........3 offensive
Howard: 30 points, 23 rebounds.......5 offensive
Jefferson: 32 points, 20 rebounds.........6 offensive
Bosh: 42 points, 13 rebounds........6 offensive
Bynum: 28 points, 12 rebounds........8 offensive
Jefferson: 39 points, 15 rebounds.......8 offensive
Duncan: 36 points, 17 rebounds.......6 offensive
Bogut: 29 points, 11 rebounds........3 offensive
Bogut: 19 points, 13 rebounds........5 offensive
Jermain O'neal: 30 points, 11 rebounds......2 offensive
Ilgauskas: 21 points, 10 rebounds.......5 offensive
Chandler: 19 points, 10 rebounds......6 offensive
Kaman:22 points, 20 rebounds........6 offensive
Eddy Curry: 21 points, 8 rebounds......5 offensive


If a team gives up all of those nights over a 50 game stretch, they aren't a contender and have no shot. Yes, the Shaq trade didn't work out, but they were already in a shitty spot at the time of the trade.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

They took a swing and missed. So what? It did not hamper them in any way. Could they have done better? Yes. They had to do something and it was a bold move that could have worked out better had the players bought in.

The mistake was not the trade imo, it is the moves being made in the draft and in FA and with extensions.


Spot on. Everything here is right. They rolled the dice with that trade. Maybe it only had a 10% chance of clicking perfectly and winning a title, but the team prior to the Shaq trade had a 0% chance of winning a title. As a fan of the oldest team w/o a championship, I really don't give a shit about anything other than winning a ring.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Dok,
I'm curious to know how Dragic is coming along?
Is he making any strides this summer?
Do you think he'll be the Suns PG of the future?

I ask this because I know how much they were salivating over the "slim" prospect of obtaining Steph Curry in the proposed Amare trade with GSW.


Dragic is working his ass off to rebuild his shot after putting on 25 pounds of muscle, not an easy task at all. He's having an inconsistent summer league because of it.

The team doesn't have the faith in Dragic that I do. I unfortunately don't think he's going to last long with the team. The Steph Curry thing is an indicator that Kerr doesn't see Dragic as the future PG, even though Steph Curry isn't a PG.

[DPG21920]

That is crazy if the Suns, after being so high on Dragic, would already be off of his potential.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

That is crazy if the Suns, after being so high on Dragic, would already be off of his potential.


It fits the mold perfectly of starting to tear the team down and rebuild but once you're beyond the point of no return and you've turned the team into a lottery team you decide you want to stop rebuilding and go for it all.

[Sigz]

http://www.forumammo.com/cpg/albums/Upload/dont%20care/Care-Fascinating_%28Basketball%29.jpg

[da_suns_fan]

Umm...hiccup is a nicer word than I would have used.

The Suns called it "rolling the dice", but it was really flushing any chance of getting something for Marion down the toilet.

I remember a buddy of mine called me the night before the trade all worried and I said "I heard all about it...it CANT be true. The Suns' front office isnt THAT stupid. Shaq has two more years left on that ridiculous contract. He's BURIED in Miami until that final year".

But they were that stupid.

Shaq decided to show up on some games, but most nights he's just cared about his touches and didnt give any effort on defense OR offense unless he had the ball. He ruined team chemistry and the team's identity.

Letting Shaq run the show got the Suns no-where. Kudos to Kerr and Sarver for admitting they made a terrible mistake.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Umm...hiccup is a nicer word than I would have used.

The Suns called it "rolling the dice", but it was really flushing any chance of getting something for Marion down the toilet.

I remember a buddy of mine called me the night before the trade all worried and I said "I heard all about it...it CANT be true. The Suns' front office isnt THAT stupid. Shaq has two more years left on that ridiculous contract. He's BURIED in Miami until that final year".

But they were that stupid.

Shaq decided to show up on some games, but most nights he's just cared about his touches and didnt give any effort on defense OR offense unless he had the ball. He ruined team chemistry and the team's identity.

Letting Shaq run the show got the Suns no-where. Kudos to Kerr and Sarver for admitting they made a terrible mistake.


I'm not gonna argue about whether or not blindly bashing Shaq is right, but the Suns were headed nowhere before the trade.

[DPG21920]

How was it a terrible mistake? It did not cap them out or ruin their chances. You were not going to get much for Marion and the Suns were going no where with Marion. It did nothing to hurt the Suns and I do not know what you expected the Suns to do? What could they have realistically gotten in return for Marion that would have catapulted them to a legit shot at a title?

[KidCongo]

Umm...hiccup is a nicer word than I would have used.

The Suns called it "rolling the dice", but it was really flushing any chance of getting something for Marion down the toilet.

I remember a buddy of mine called me the night before the trade all worried and I said "I heard all about it...it CANT be true. The Suns' front office isnt THAT stupid. Shaq has two more years left on that ridiculous contract. He's BURIED in Miami until that final year".

But they were that stupid.

Shaq decided to show up on some games, but most nights he's just cared about his touches and didnt give any effort on defense OR offense unless he had the ball. He ruined team chemistry and the team's identity.

Letting Shaq run the show got the Suns no-where. Kudos to Kerr and Sarver for admitting they made a terrible mistake.

Shaq knows what a championship team feels like. He probably wanted to make himself look better so he could get onto a contender like he is now.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Shaq decided to show up on some games, but most nights he's just cared about his touches and didnt give any effort on defense OR offense unless he had the ball. He ruined team chemistry and the team's identity.


The team's chemistry was horrible before the Shaq trade, and it's not like Marion was some hard working team player who played his heart out. Amare and Marion were ready to kill each other and Nash was getting really tired of having to be the mediator in that drama, which btw I don't blame him for AT ALL. It's extremely annoying to listen to Gambo and Ash but what they say usually has legitimacy. They've said multiple times Nash went to D'antoni and Kerr flat out saying I'm tired of playing with Marion, pull the trigger on that Shaq trade.

Also, it's been made clear by D'antoni himself multiple times that HE was the one who went to Kerr with the Shaq trade, and that Kerr was the hesitant party. I know that's not a very convenient story for you to believe, but it's what happened. D'antoni himself said it.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

What could they have realistically gotten in return for Marion that would have catapulted them to a legit shot at a title?


One of the most annoying things ever was going to school the day of the Shaq trade and hearing bandwagon fans who knew nothing about basketball and thought Marion was an A-list player whine about how the Suns should have traded Marion for Lebron or Kobe instead of Shaq.

[DPG21920]

Yikes.

[SenorSpur]

Dragic is working his ass off to rebuild his shot after putting on 25 pounds of muscle, not an easy task at all. He's having an inconsistent summer league because of it.

The team doesn't have the faith in Dragic that I do. I unfortunately don't think he's going to last long with the team. The Steph Curry thing is an indicator that Kerr doesn't see Dragic as the future PG, even though Steph Curry isn't a PG.

Then why the hell were they so "gung-ho" about acquiring him - even going so far as to orchestrate that trade with the Spurs last summer? How could the guy have fallen out of favor so quickly? He just there and he's not even fully developed. If Dragic isn't the future, then who?

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

The Suns called it "rolling the dice", but it was really flushing any chance of getting something for Marion down the toilet.


hindsight is always 20/20. If someone asked me if I could do the Shaq trade all over again, I'd say hell no. In retrospect trading Marion for the best available package of young players and draft picks was the best idea, but be realistic, almost all the fans still thought that team was a contender. They would have thrown a temper tantrum if Marion was traded for future assets signaling the beginning of a rebuilding stage.

Heck, Kerr finally tapped out and gave Nash an extension giving in to the Nash D'antoni lovers whining because enough of them still think this team is a contender.

[Findog]

How was it a terrible mistake? It did not cap them out or ruin their chances. You were not going to get much for Marion and the Suns were going no where with Marion. It did nothing to hurt the Suns and I do not know what you expected the Suns to do? What could they have realistically gotten in return for Marion that would have catapulted them to a legit shot at a title?

I think getting a big man that could defend the paint and not be an offensive liability was who they should've gone after...A Camby or Chandler type. Hell, the reason they played the Spurs so tough in 07 was because Kurt Thomas did a good job of defending Duncan and consistently hit that mid-range jumper without bogging down their offense.

The problem with Shaq is that he still wants to be The Man. He talked a good game about blending in with Phoenix and being a complementary player...I don't pay near as much attention to the Suns as DOK or dsf, but it seemed watching from afar that he wanted the offense to run through him in the 08/09 season. I kinda agree with da_suns_fan that bringing him in means a short shelf life before he has a corrosive effect on team chemistry. He helped the Heat win a title but they were glad to be rid of him at the end of his days in Miami, and not just bc they were getting rid of his contract.

[DPG21920]

I think getting a big man that could defend the paint and not be an offensive liability was who they should've gone after...A Camby or Chandler type. Hell, the reason they played the Spurs so tough in 07 was because Kurt Thomas did a good job of defending Duncan and consistently hit that mid-range jumper without bogging down their offense.

The problem with Shaq is that he still wants to be The Man. He talked a good game about blending in with Phoenix and being a complementary player...I don't pay near as much attention to the Suns as DOK or dsf, but it seemed watching from afar that he wanted the offense to run through him in the 08/09 season. I kinda agree with da_suns_fan that bringing him in means a short shelf life before he has a corrosive effect on team chemistry. He helped the Heat win a title but they were glad to be rid of him at the end of his days in Miami, and not just bc they were getting rid of his contract.

See that line of thinking I do not get. When you are making a trade of that magnitude, you only think about winning a title. Yes Shaq had some of that baggage and it was a risk, but if it clicked, it was one of the very few trades that could have resulted in winning a chip. The style did not work and they needed to be creative and change it.

Getting a Camby/Chandler...might have been a better fit, but no matter what, the ceiling on that trade would never equal a title, so why do it?

[Findog]

See that line of thinking I do not get. When you are making a trade of that magnitude, you only think about winning a title. Yes Shaq had some of that baggage and it was a risk, but if it clicked, it was one of the very few trades that could have resulted in winning a chip. The style did not work and they needed to be creative and change it.

Getting a Camby/Chandler...might have been a better fit, but no matter what, the ceiling on that trade would never equal a title, so why do it?

I've never been a big fan of Amare's game...he is an unreal talent, but it was my opinion back in 2007 that he'd never amount to anything more than what he already is...a guy who just can't put it all together. Won't play defense, won't sacrifice touches or other aspects of his game to make his team stronger, etc. I don't think he's a bad guy per se, but he strikes me as the kind of guy who isn't too upset one way or the other if Phoenix loses but he scores 40...but if they win and he only scores 12, he'd be pissed.

I always thought if a title was what they were after, they should've dangled Amare as the trade bait. He would've fetched more, they'd still have Marion to cross match on defense for Nash, guard multiple positions and continue to be a one-man fast break...and Amare could yield the parts they needed to win a title (more D in the middle). With Nash at the time, he could've turned Erick Fucking Dampier into a double-double machine.* My contention is Amare is the piece they should've used to shore up their weaknesses, not Marion. Marion on the Suns was such a perfect fit. And I think getting rid of Amare would've solved a lot of his unhappiness issues in Phoenix.

* I'm just using Damp as an example of Nash's ability to work magic with the most woefully inept offensive players. I am by no means suggesting they should've traded Amare for Damp.

[Xylus]

I think the SSOL teams were fatally flawed...despite good individual defenders like Bell, Diaw and Marion, they routinely gave up 50%+ shooting nights.
Their opponents' FG% was mid-level, not really that much worse than the best teams of any given year. The Suns' problem was always defensive rebounding, and an inability to guard Tim Duncan. SSOL didn't routinely give up 50%+ shooting nights, they routinely gave up 50 rebounds.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

I think getting a big man that could defend the paint and not be an offensive liability was who they should've gone after...A Camby or Chandler type. The problem with Shaq is that he still wants to be The Man. He talked a good game about blending in with Phoenix and being a complementary player...I don't pay near as much attention to the Suns as DOK or dsf, but it seemed watching from afar that he wanted the offense to run through him in the 08/09 season. I kinda agree with da_suns_fan that bringing him in means a short shelf life before he has a corrosive effect on team chemistry. He helped the Heat win a title but they were glad to be rid of him at the end of his days in Miami, and not just bc they were getting rid of his contract.


The "Shaq whining about his touches killed the team" thing is a convenient story the media could cook up justifying a Shaq trade because of how much Shaq complained in the past. Culburn369 might not seem like the most informational poster but he knows what he's talking about when he says the media and the Suns own a little piece of each other and you have to earn a spot in their little circle. Every year the Suns and the media come up with a scapegoat to shove down everyone's throat. In 2007, it was the Amare suspensions. 2008, it was D'antoni because he partially was to blame and he had said some really stupid things setting himself up. 2009, it was Shaq because his past breakups with teams made him a convenient target for the media.

I challenge anyone to find me a quote from this past season where Shaq demanded more touches. Shaq was a great teammate last season, he was the one pranking around with Lou Amundson and going up to hug Goran Dragic everytime Dragic did something good. You never saw Nash hanging around with the younger players trying to loosen them up when they're trying to adjust to the NBA, Shaq was the one doing all of that. He actually did quite the opposite calling Robin Lopez "overrated" and saying "this is by far the toughest season I've ever had," and on way more than one occasion expressing his desire to bolt Phoenix and head to NY.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Getting a Camby/Chandler...might have been a better fit, but no matter what, the ceiling on that trade would never equal a title, so why do it?

Sons I wish everyone had this mentality.

[Findog]

I think one other benefit of trading Amare is that it would've allowed Diaw to blossom. Don't get me wrong, I think Diaw is a bit of a pussy, but he played very well for Phoenix in 2006 and he seemed like a much different player in Charlotte. It just seems like he couldn't adjust to Amare being back on the team and find a role.

[DPG21920]

That is a legit argument, but I think Marion was more of a malcontent. Not to mention, if you think you can make a move to contend/keep building for the future, trading Marion makes more sense than Amare.

[Xylus]

People often forget that Amare wasn't the only big man we lost before the 2006 playoffs. Kurt Thomas, who had anchored a pretty solid defense for an offensive-minded team, got injured about 20 games before the playoffs started and didn't make a full return. That left Boris Diaw and Tim Freaking Thomas as our primary bigs. Had Kurt Thomas been healthy that postseason, we might have beaten Dallas and Miami.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

I think one other benefit of trading Amare is that it would've allowed Diaw to blossom. Don't get me wrong, I think Diaw is a bit of a pussy, but he played very well for Phoenix in 2006 and he seemed like a much different player in Charlotte. It just seems like he couldn't adjust to Amare being back on the team and find a role.


One reason is he couldn't adjust the other was because he had no desire to. Right after Diaw signed his long term contract he showed up to training camp fat as can be and whether he could or couldn't adjust to Amare has nothing to do with his habit of passing out of wide open layups or deciding to hoist up 20 footers when he's got a clear path. As you mentioned, he's a puss.

Yeah I know he played well in Charlotte while he was motivated to make Phoenix eat CROW and motivated to show everyone he's better than Amare (which he isn't), but lets see how he plays a year from now once he's got the fans convinced he's a hard worker.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

People often forget that Amare wasn't the only big man we lost before the 2006 playoffs. Kurt Thomas, who had anchored a pretty solid defense for an offensive-minded team, got injured about 20 games before the playoffs started and didn't make a full return. That left Boris Diaw and Tim Freaking Thomas as our primary bigs. Had Kurt Thomas been healthy that postseason, we might have beaten Dallas and Miami.


He doesn't help us against Dallas that much matchup wise, but if he was healthy they don't need 7 games to beat the Lakers and the Clippers, which means Raja Bell's calf doesn't get torn game 1 of the WCF because his legs would have gotten to rest.

Also, if Phoenix gets by Dallas, they for sure beat Miami. Miami matched up horribly with the SSOL Suns.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Are Suns fans still trying to argue that their teams weren't godawful on defense? They're like the Holocaust Deniers of NBA fandom.


:lmao


As wrong as it sounds, Xylus' post was right. The opponent FG% from 2005-2007 was middle of the pack, but the defense was still horrible when you factor in the offensive rebounds given up.

[Findog]

The only time the Suns were "average" on defense was 2005-2007. Average doesn't cut it, title-wise, even if you're the best offensive team in the league.

[Guajalote]

DoK, I always thought the Diaw/Bell trade was the death blow for the Suns. Up to that point, it seemed to me with Barbosa coming off the bench, Amare doing his thing, Bell causing fits with his D, and Nash doing his thing, the Suns were at their best. Once those two got traded, as a Spurs fan, I seemed to be able to relax a lot more going into a Suns game or series.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

DoK, I always thought the Diaw/Bell trade was the death blow for the Suns.


I really wish I could pinpoint one particular "deathblow" to the team, but there isn't any. They were 13-10 at the time of that trade and Bell was doing anything but lock people up on D leading up to that trade. Diaw was still lazy fat Diaw. The Suns were headed South way before that trade.

[TheMACHINE]

Of course the retarded band wagon Laker fan Machine isn't gonna respond to my post since he knows it's true.

Whatever floats your flip flopping boat. I bet you were all up on Nash's nuts when the Suns were doing great. Dont tell me about bandwagoning. You're the one known as the flip flopper on this board. Im actually looking forward to the Suns doing good this year to watch you start the "nash is goat" threads.

Just so you dont start crying, I guess its only coincidence that the Suns fell apart after Shaq came...since Shaq isnt known for leaving teams in a mess right.

Que the "I wasnt a nash fan when the Suns were on top of the league" bullshit.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Whatever floats your flip flopping boat. I bet you were all up on Nash's nuts when the Suns were doing great. Dont tell me about bandwagoning. You're the one known as the flip flopper on this board. Im actually looking forward to the Suns doing good this year to watch you start the "nash is goat" threads.

Just so you dont start crying, I guess its only coincidence that the Suns fell apart after Shaq came...since Shaq isnt known for leaving teams in a mess right.

Que the "I wasnt a nash fans when the Suns were on top of the league" bullshit.


:lmao since you and Allanon call me a flip flopper I'm therefore the flip flopper of this board.....

And yeah, I loved Nash when the Suns were good. I'm sure you loved Shaq from 2000-2002. The past is the past. What Nash did in 2006 doesn't make what he did in 2009 ok. Are you saying that since Nash used to be good I should be OK with the Suns throwing away the next 5 seasons?

And I'd love to hear about how the Suns are going to be good when they couldn't make the playoffs last year. If you think trading Shaq for nothing helps them then you're even a more retarded fatass than I thought you were.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Just so you dont start crying, I guess its only coincidence that the Suns fell apart after Shaq came


They had fallen apart already, anyone with an IQ above 80 looking at it from an unbiased perspective would know that. Refer to my post showing the games big men were having against them before the Shaq trade, and then tell me a team with that interior defense was capable of winning it all.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

If you were a fan prior to the Gasol trade, you'd remember the 2007 Christmas game where Bynum completely lit the Suns up.

[TheMACHINE]

They had fallen apart already, anyone with an IQ above 80 looking at it from an unbiased perspective would know that. Refer to my post showing the games big men were having against them before the Shaq trade, and then tell me a team with that interior defense was capable of winning it all.

and your an idiot to think that anything can happen if they hold a good seed in the playoffs. You're also a retard to think that Shaq in the suns didnt change the system. The Suns were a couple suspensions short of making the Finals. You can bash Nash all you want, but to think that Shaq being with the Suns has nothing to do with thier downfall is ignorant.

[La Peace]

That he did Doc, that he did.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

and your an idiot to think that anything can happen if they hold a good seed in the playoffs. You're also a retard to think that Shaq in the suns didnt change the system. The Suns were a couple suspensions short of making the Finals. You can bash Nash all you want, but to think that Shaq being with the Suns has nothing to do with thier downfall is ignorant.

"Anything can happen" is ludicrous.

It's convenient of you to ignore this stat when I repeatedly post it, but the Suns were 4-12 against the other 8 good teams in the West at the time of the Shaq trade. A team with that record against the team's they'll be playing in the playoffs won't win a championship, and you're retarded if you think it could.

And yes, trading for Shaq had something to do with their downfall because it wound up being a trade that didn't work. I never denied that.

[La Peace]

As a Laker fan who watched Shaq and those Suns play a lot through the years, here was what my honest thought process was before and after the Shaq trade.

Before: "Yes we have Gasol, we are definitely better than the Suns now."

After: "Wow that risky, we can probably still beat them, but if they can make it work we are in for a dog fight."

And that, to me, is the only reason why that trade was made, in the event that it worked, they would be in a better position than before. And as a fan thats all I would want from my team, to take a shot at winning.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

The Suns were a couple suspensions short of making the Finals.


You're comparing a team with Kurt Thomas to a team w/o Kurt Thomas. If the Suns don't have KT in that series, they get swept.

[TheMACHINE]

"Anything can happen" is ludicrous.

It's convenient of you to ignore this stat when I repeatedly post it, but the Suns were 4-12 against the other 8 good teams in the West at the time of the Shaq trade. A team with that record against the team's they'll be playing in the playoffs won't win a championship, and you're retarded if you think it could.

And yes, trading for Shaq had something to do with their downfall because it wound up being a trade that didn't work. I never denied that.

Lebron was able to get to the ECF with bad record againts top teams....fine...i wont blame you for the Suns Franchise mistake, but IMO it was a dumbass move regardless. You might like that move, but you were the number 1 seed, and risked changing the whole system that got you there for an aging big man with a fat contract who couldnt do crap in his last year with Miami. Cleveland will suffer the same fate, but they will lose Lebron as well.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

You can bash Nash all you want, but to think that Shaq being with the Suns has nothing to do with thier downfall is ignorant.


Acting like you know more about the Suns than someone who knows their 2nd biggest owner, has watched more or less every game since 2000, and has way too much on his hands to read about what went on is about as ignorant as it gets when my guess is you watched at most 10 Suns games last year and probably didn't read a single article about them.

[TheMACHINE]

Acting like you know more about the Suns than someone who knows their 2nd biggest owner, has watched more or less every game since 2000, and has way too much on his hands to read about what went on is about as ignorant as it gets when my guess is you watched at most 10 Suns games last year and probably didn't read a single article about them.

uh oh...you know thier owner. Watch out now!

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Lebron was able to get to the ECF with bad record againts top teams....fine...i wont blame you for the Suns Franchise mistake, but IMO it was a dumbass move regardless. You might like that move, but you were the number 1 seed, and risked changing the whole system that got you there for an aging big man with a fat contract who couldnt do crap in his last year with Miami. Cleveland will suffer the same fate, but they will lose Lebron as well.

You just proved my point.....he got to the ECF, that's not winning a championship. When you're a fan of the oldest team in the NBA w/o a title, the first round and the conference finals are the exact same thing. Maybe if they keep Marion they get to the 2nd round or the WCF and lose to the Lakers or Spurs, doesn't really fuckin matter to me. No ring and no ring are the same thing


How many times do I have to mention that you needed to read between the lines with that "1 seed". Please look at their schedule, they were taking advantage of a weak ass first 50 games that involved very little front line competition.

[TheMACHINE]

Acting like you know more about the Suns than someone who knows their 2nd biggest owner, has watched more or less every game since 2000, and has way too much on his hands to read about what went on is about as ignorant as it gets when my guess is you watched at most 10 Suns games last year and probably didn't read a single article about them.

i appreciate you reading my post a few times by quoting the whole thing, then by requoting pieces of it later on. I hope this fat asian kid isnt getting to your head. :toast

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

uh oh...you know thier owner.


Meaning I've got a decent idea of how much Nash and Amare were getting sick of playing with Marion prior to the trade.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

i appreciate you reading my post a few times by quoting the whole thing, then by requoting pieces of it later on. I hope this fat asian kid isnt getting to your head. :toast


idk what's going on in your head seeing that you keep mind fucking yourself and changing your argument.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

If all you're saying that looking back at it now the Shaq trade was a mistake, then this whole argument was pointless cause I agree that in hindsight, it was dumb. No way I'd do it over again.

[TheMACHINE]

If all you're saying that looking back at it now the Shaq trade was a mistake, then this whole argument was pointless cause I agree that in hindsight, it was dumb. No way I'd do it over again.

Then we agree, except for the fact that 80% of America new it was a mistake once it was announced.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Then we agree, except for the fact that 80% of America new it was a mistake once it was announced.



I knew there was an 80% chance it would turn out to be a mistake, but the 5-10% chance it would click perfectly made it worth it since 5-10% is better than 0%.

[anonoftheinternets]

I knew there was an 80% chance it would turn out to be a mistake, but the 5-10% chance it would click perfectly made it worth it since 5-10% is better than 0%.

obvious fool is obvious ... dont bother arguing ..

[picc84]

SA beat Phx last year by running the same play every trip down the court for 5 games straight. That was Shaq/Nash's fault for their defensive ineptitude but if it wasn't that, it would have been something else. Shaq was guarding TD pretty effectively, its just that as soon as Pop noticed he PnR'd something like 200 times in a row.

Phx just has too many empty stats guys on the team now. Amare and Richardson might fill up the score sheet but somehow it doesn't seem to mean as much as other guys, even when they score less.

[SpuronyourFace]

what Nash's agent calls a hiccup, I call an asshole.

[Ghazi]

Nash's agent is right.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Nash's agent is right.


You're a queer.