The Orlando Magic Are Stacked

[duncan228]

The Orlando Magic are stacked (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ball_dont_lie/post/The-Orlando-Magic-are-stacked;_ylt=ArMM8R6MloKCo591snHw7PO8vLYF?urn=nba, 177027)
By Kelly Dwyer
Ball Don't Lie

It's hard not to be condescending or matter of fact, but I can't help but implore to readers that the Orlando Magic have absolutely owned this offseason.

I understand why you may not be as smitten.

Vince Carter has a rep. He's not well-liked in Toronto, that's one thing, and he's hardly everyone's favorite outside of Ontario. That's entirely fair.

Starting in the 2000-01 season and really taking hold the year after, Carter shot jumper after jumper when drive after drive were called for. He acted the opposite of fellow 1998 draftee Paul Pierce, who is about the opposite of Carter in terms of athleticism and length. And when VC did take a hit, look out, and hit the concession stand, because he'd stay on the court, milking every bump, delaying games and annoying fans.

So I can understand why it isn't fun to get behind Orlando trading for the man. Most of us think Hedo Turkoglu is overpaid, but we dig Hedo. He eats pizza, he throws bad lobs, he looks like Tas Melas after a bad fight and even worse shaving job. We loved Courtney Lee, the plucky rookie who took on all comers even while wearing a Bill Laimbeer-styled mask. We dug the 2008-09 Orlando Magic.

And that team, more or less, is gone.

Replacing Hedo the point forward, essentially, is Carter the scorer. He's two years older, his rep is no good, and he's two summers removed from signing his own bad contract in 2007. Replacing Lee is Ryan Anderson, who's not replacing Lee at all. Brandon Bass is on board, and instead of letting the Dallas Mavericks put together a mini-resurgence, the Magic cattily matched Marcin Gortat's contract offer, keeping the backup center as exactly that. A backup center. How rude.

How awesome.

This team is stacked. Replacing Hedo's 17-5-5-on 41 percent shooting line is Carter, who somehow managed a 21-5-5-on 44 percent shooting line last year, even while being dragged down by the weight of his massive contract and all the hatred and enmity we have for the man.

Replacing Tony Battie's fruitless (if well intentioned) minutes during last year's Finals will be Bass, who merely scores at a very efficient rate, rebounds, and works well away from the ball.

Replacing a 23-year old Dwight Howard will be a 24-year old Dwight Howard. Replacing Rafer Alston and iffy minutes from Jameer Nelson will be 30+ strong minutes from a healthy, All-Star level Jameer Nelson. The Magic need a backup point guard, but guess what? Gortat, with his blessing, can be traded for one six weeks into the season.

Now, for those of you that are telling yourselves, rightfully, that the Magic needed an injured Kevin Garnett and a hapless (through no fault of his own) Zydrunas Ilgauskas to make the Finals, re-read the preceding two paragraphs. This team has improved, considerably. And the team it improved upon was right there amongst the C's and Cavaliers last winter, before Nelson's shoulder went boom.

Does this hurt the Magic's style of play? Was it some unorthodox run that allowed the team a trip to June?

No. Dwight Howard's ability to run past Big Z allowed the team a ticket to the Finals. It wasn't the fact that they ran a point forward (something Carter, sometimes to a fault, is more than capable of acting like) or that Rashard Lewis drew attention at power forward. You want Lewis to draw attention at power forward against the Cavs next May? Run him at power forward against the Cavs next May. Until then, toss out the best, most orthodox, lineup and watch as the wins pile up.

Even if Carter steps back a bit, at his age. Even if Gortat sulks, Nelson doesn't bounce back, Howard doesn't turn into Kevin McHale, and Bass starts slowly. This team is still better. Way better. And we've barely mentioned Ryan Anderson's pretty, pretty eyes.

Have they paid through the teeth? Are they trying to win now? Hell yes. That contract was signed as soon as the sign-and-trade with Rashard Lewis went through two summers ago. When they committed that much to a player in his prime, the Magic signed off on the win now scheme, even if Howard was years away from his peak.

That's bad, if you screw it up. The Magic, Otis Smith and Dave Twardzik, haven't screwed it up. And credit the team's ownership for paying for a winner. Even before the new stadium goes up. Even in this economy. Good on them. Appreciate these moves, because this team is running rings around everyone else this summer. I wouldn't be as excited for Richard Jefferson, cats and kittens.

There's a good-to-great chance it could mean a second round exit. That's how tough the East is at the top of the order, and that's OK. Hedo will be just fine in his first couple of years in Toronto, VC is past his prime, and these moves aren't exactly fiscally responsible.

Doesn't matter. They're moves. They're great moves. This team went to the Finals last month, and in the four weeks since, it's gotten much, much better. Appreciate that.

[Shank]

They're either stacked or fucked with the money they're shelling out for a number of backups.

Odds on Carter lasting an entire season?

[23LeBronJames23]

VC, Jameer and Rashard is the only reason i like Orlando Magic

[Culburn369]

1. Boston Celtics

2. Los Angeles Lakers

3. San Antonio Spurs

4-30. The kit & kaboodle.

[Red Hawk #21]

They're either stacked or fucked with the money they're shelling out for a number of backups.

Odds on Carter lasting an entire season?

I would say Fucked.

[Thunder Dan]

Turk and Lee for Carter is a lateral move.

[23LeBronJames23]

1. Cleveland Cavaliers

2. Los Angeles Lakers

3. Boston Celtics

4-30. The kit & kaboodle.

[lefty]

Stacked WTF


They won t even return to the ECF :lmao

[Spursfan092120]

I don't get all the VC love...where's the playoff wins? Where's the ring? What makes him so much better than what Orlando had? They dropped some great talent for a guy who's all about himself. I don't see Orlando doing NEAR as good as they did last year..that's just me, maybe, but I just don't see it. And I don't see how they've "owned" anything...The Spurs have had the best offseason in my opinon, no biased. To upgrade your lineup like they did with what they gave up and what they drafted is fantastic...Orlando might be worse.

[JustBlaze]

1. Cleveland Cavaliers.

2. Denver Nuggets.

3. Boston Celtics.

4-30. The kit and Kaboodle.

[mavsfan1000]

I think the word that best fits the Orlando Magic is fucked.

[Culburn369]

1. Cleveland Cavaliers

2. Los Angeles Lakers

3. Boston Celtics

4-30. The kit & kaboodle.

LOL! Grand stuff, 23!

[Shank]

Lee got the shaft in being traded and Anderson is getting jobbed by having to play behind 2-3 others to get burn.

I don't get why they thought they needed to retool so badly.

[Ghazi]

Stacked is not appropriate IMO. Top 5 team perhaps, but I don't think they're getting back to the Finals... 2nd round exit IMO, which would have been the case this year if KG was healthy.

[23LeBronJames23]

Stacked WTF


They won t even return to the ECF :lmao

you never know! plus look at their Starting 5
PG: Jameer Nelson
SG: Mikael Peitrus
SF: Vince Carter
PF: Rashard Lewis
C: Dwight Howard

[Shank]

1. Dallas Mavericks

2. LA Lakers

3. OKC Thunder

4-30. The kit & kaboodle.

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

I'll pass judgement in 90 or so days when Gortat becomes available to trade. If they can move him for the right pieces I can buy that they're better, but I fucking hate Vince Carter.

[23LeBronJames23]

1. Dallas Mavericks

2. LA Lakers

3. OKC Thunder

4-30. The kit & kaboodle.

NO its

1.Cleveland Cavaliers

2.LA Lakers

3.OKC Thunder

4-30. The Kit & Kaboodle

[Spursfan092120]

you never know! plus look at their Starting 5
PG: Jameer Nelson
SG: Mikael Peitrus
SF: Vince Carter
PF: Rashard Lewis
C: Dwight Howard

That actually doesn't look incredibly impressive to me...Carter is a me me me player...Jameer is still getting over being injured..I like Pietrus...Lewis is impressive as well, and Howard is a beast, yes..but unfortunately for them, there are stronger lineups out there...they're definitely not winning the title this year, which means they won't be any better this year than last year...They're not beating LA

PG: Farmar
SG: Kobe
SF: Odom or other decent SF
PF: Artest
C: Gasol

or SA

PG: Parker
SG: Ginobili
SF: Jefferson
PF: Duncan
C: McDyess

[iggypop123]

if they were willing to spend so much why didnt they just pay turk o glue instead of bass, gortat.

[Spursfan092120]

NO its

1.Cleveland Cavaliers

2.LA Lakers

3.OKC Thunder

4-30. The Kit & Kaboodle
That's GOT to be the homer in you..if you think Cleveland was the most improved team this offseason, you're insane. The old gray mare just ain't what he used to be.

[Spursfan092120]

if they were willing to spend so much why didnt they just pay turk o glue instead of bass, gortat.
I was wondering the same damn thing.

[BlackBellamy]

Dwight's tits are kinda big, but not like "Big-Mac" stacked. If they brought in Big Baby then they would be signing for some of the biggest boobs in the game. Did I misunderstand something?

[23LeBronJames23]

Dwight's tits are kinda big, but not like "Big-Mac" stacked. If they brought in Big Baby then they would be signing for some of the biggest boobs in the game. Did I misunderstand something?

:lmao

[Culburn369]

PG: Farmar
SG: Kobe
SF: Odom or other decent SF
PF: Artest
C: Gasol

or SA

PG: Parker
SG: Ginobili
SF: Jefferson
PF: Duncan
C: McDyess

For you it all rests on "The Lethal One" Manu. Him & Pop drive that franchise to it's heights. If Manu comes back compromised & pedestrian you can't get there. He must come back whole.

[G-Nob]

Gortat is going to the Rockets. Foregone conclusion.

[Red Hawk #21]

if they were willing to spend so much why didnt they just pay turk o glue instead of bass, gortat.

Because their management are morons.

[Spursfan092120]

For you it all rests on "The Lethal One" Manu. Him & Pop drive that franchise to it's heights. If Manu comes back compromised & pedestrian you can't get there. He must come back whole.
I agree with that 100%...Manu has to be healthy...unless RJ does his 20+ point average...even then, we need a more healthy than normal Manu.

[Soul]

RAFER?

Are you kidding me?

LOL!!

There is no gurantee we'll even make it back to the ECF, but most Magic fans including myself are happy about the roster (Besides from trading Lee)... we still need to round it out with maybe one more MLE/vet signing. Some people are just straight hating and bringing up bit pieces we've lost.. but YOU LOST BATTIE AND ALSTON!11.

[HeyIt'sMe]

The West will come down to the Lakers and Spurs. Expect it to be a much tougher series than the last time we met.

The East on the other hand could be extremely exciting. Boston will come in as the favorite. The Cavs just added a shit load of muscle with Shaq, and a much better shooter in Parker.

This guy claims the Magic got better, but miserably failed at mentioning Rafer not being there. Bass and Gortat will not cut it against the likes of Sheed and KG. Shaq will make Howard look small, weak, and very amateurish.

Carter will continue his career of not having the heart to step up against equal talent. Infact, thats what they lost most when they let Hedo go. He was the heart of that team, and thats something Carter will never have.

Shaq has never embarrassed Howard. Stop making stuff up. He still can't guard the pick and roll and Howard is still 100 times more athletic and agile at this point in their careers. The Magic will milk that play to death while playing the Cavs, and Mike Brown will be too dumb to counteract it.

[sook]

Turk and Lee for Carter is a lateral move.

I agree.

Stupid fucking team even though i hated turkgolu anyways

[Culburn369]

Shaq has never embarrassed Howard. Stop making stuff up. He still can't guard the pick and roll and Howard is still 100 times more athletic and agile at this point in their careers. The Magic will milk that play to death while playing the Cavs, and Mike Brown will be too dumb to counteract it.

...& ESPN/Media will be complicite by refusing to castigate Daddy for his chronic inability to guard it.

Hey, with the goods.

[HeyIt'sMe]

Ahem...

SiTkTA2Sigk&feature

Of course it happens in an All-Star game of all places. I'm talking one-on-one in games that actually matter. Shaq has done an adequate job in the past stopping Howard, but he sure as hell doesn't shut him down or dominate him.

I'm telling you, Mike Brown is a complete imbecile and won't adjust to anything Orlando does. SVG will run pick and rolls all game and Shaq will be befuddled as to what to do, much like he has been his entire career in defending that play.

[Cry Havoc]

Good to see Orlando fans joining Spurstalk.

Shaq is nearly worthless on D these days.

[angelbelow]

If they kept Turk I think the season would be over. Just give them all rings.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Shaq is nearly worthless on D these days.


At pick and roll D, his post D is still good, some Spurs fans like you just search for reasons to hate Shaq.

[LnGrrrR]

Ahem...

SiTkTA2Sigk&feature

That's pretty f'ing embarassing. :rollin

[peskypesky]

I think the Magic got worse, not better.

[Dunc n Dave]

At pick and roll D, his post D is still good, some Spurs fans like you just search for reasons to hate Shaq.

I agree, Shaq is still one of the best post defenders. He gave Duncan problems even when he was with Phoenix. He gives Cleveland someone that can play Howard straight up without having to double and leave shooters open.

Howard has nowhere NEAR the post moves that Duncan has, and Shaq's muscle (or fat) will make it hard for Howard to get to the rim for dunks.

[HeyIt'sMe]

The Spurs use to kill us with the pick and roll when Shaq was young. You fail to realize that its a two way street. Howard cant guard Shaq on the block, Shaq can guard Howard.

I never said it wasn't.

[jag]

The Spurs use to kill us with the pick and roll when Shaq was young. You fail to realize that its a two way street. Howard cant guard Shaq on the block, Shaq can guard Howard.

Howard has a laughable post game. His offense consists of elevating, catching lobs and putting back rebounds.

[ginobili's bald spot]

I think the Magic got worse, not better.

I agree. Lee and Turk for carter is a downgrade IMO.

[HeyIt'sMe]

Howard has a laughable post game. His offense consists of elevating, catching lobs and putting back rebounds.

Yet, he somehow managed to post two 40 point games last season and a myriad of 30 point games. What's laughable is how people think Howard has no offensive game.

It's also funny how overrated Turkoglu and Lee are starting to become, but that's a story for another time.

[KidCongo]

At least Howard will have to guard someone now. Probably foul out within 25 minutes. All he does is hack.

[jag]

Yet, he somehow managed to post two 40 point games last season and a myriad of 30 point games. What's laughable is how people think Howard has no offensive game.

Shooting 15+ free throws and getting 15pts worth of putbacks does not conflict with the belief that he has a laughable post game.

If someone will put a body on him and box him out (shaq), then his post game is painful to watch.

Stop being such a sensitive homer.

[jag]

Here are some games with Howard against teams with solid Bigs. The first one was with him and Shaq head to head. Like the other poster said, Howards post moves are very limited. He didnt look good against Boston either.

reference me better, ho

[KidCongo]

Shaq had a pretty firm msg to the media at his press coference. Something like 'we won't be doubling anyone'. He had the fire in his eyes.

[HeyIt'sMe]

Shooting 15+ free throws and getting 15pts worth of putbacks does not conflict with the belief that he has a laughable post game.

If someone will put a body on him and box him out (shaq), then his post game is painful to watch.

Stop being such a sensitive homer.

Howard scored 21 points on Shaq in less than 30 minutes. Man, he struggled.

Stop exaggerating on stuff.

[HeyIt'sMe]

Here are some games with Howard against teams with solid Bigs. The first one was with him and Shaq head to head. Like Jag said, "Howard has a laughable post game. His offense consists of elevating, catching lobs and putting back rebounds."


http://www.nba.com/games/20090303/PHXORL/boxscore.html

http://www.nba.com/games/20081122/HOUORL/boxscore.html

http://www.nba.com/games/20081201/ORLBOS/boxscore.html

http://www.nba.com/games/20081114/ORLDAL/boxscore.html

http://www.nba.com/games/20081116/ORLCHA/boxscore.html

http://www.nba.com/games/20081218/SASORL/boxscore.html

http://www.nba.com/games/20090122/BOSORL/boxscore.html

http://www.nba.com/games/20090317/ORLCLE/boxscore.html

lol, eight games the entire season. Every post player has bad games throughout an 82 game season. Why didn't you post the boxscore to the other San Antonio game, the one where Howard wasn't coming off of two missed games and a missed second half? Also funny is showing a Cleveland game in which he got no touches. As we saw in the playoffs, he had no trouble abusing the Cavs' front line.

This belief that Howard has no post game is asinine and needs to stop. What a shock, better defense slows down his stats. Amazing concept.

[KidCongo]

He has two moves that are very suspect on the block. His touch around the rim is shaky, which is why he never takes many shots.

That spin move that ends up with a dunk and that ugly running hook.

[jag]

Howard scored 21 points on Shaq in less than 30 minutes. Man, he struggled.

Stop exaggerating on stuff.

You're being a sensitive homer because i said Howard had a weak post game. He has terrible footwork, no jump shot, and no turnaround hooks. Do you dispute this?

[HeyIt'sMe]

There you go telling half stories again. What was Shaqs stat line?

He put up slightly better stats in about seven more minutes. We're talking about Howard's post game here, anyways, try and keep up.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Howard's post game is a joke and it's not much of an argument.

[HeyIt'sMe]

You're being a sensitive homer because i said Howard had a weak post game. He has terrible footwork, no jump shot, and no turnaround hooks. Do you dispute this?

His footwork and hooks aren't as bad as people make them out to be, but yes, he has no jump shot.

Nobody here is making Howard out to be the second coming of Kevin McHale in the post, but it's so blatantly false to say he has no post game. You can't score nearly 21 PPG on just put backs and FTs. If that was all there is to scoring, every big man with a pulse would do it.

[Spurs_210]

Howard scored 21 points on Shaq in less than 30 minutes. Man, he struggled.

Stop exaggerating on stuff.
Doesn't change the fact of how he got those points. Howard has no post game and if you really think he does then you must not know much about the game or don't really watch. Howard is very young and can develop a post game. So its really not a bad thing.

[resistanze]

No, not every big man can do it, because Howard is blessed with amazing athleticism. Nothing wrong with that, but he doesn't have a post game.

[HeyIt'sMe]

No, not every big man can do it, because Howard is blessed with amazing athleticism. Nothing wrong with that, but he doesn't have a post game.

Ben Wallace was a terrific athlete and very long. Why couldn't he do it?

Funny that two of the Howard haters in this thread are Raptors and Cavs fans, two teams Howard routinely torches.

[jag]

His footwork and hooks aren't as bad as people make them out to be, but yes, he has no jump shot.


I'm not sure how bad "people make them out to be," but they are bad. He has no touch around the rim. He muscles opposing players under the rim and then dunks the ball. That is the extent of his post game. And this is coming from someone that was rooting for his no-post-game-havin ass during the ECF and the Finals. He would get the ball in the post...and it was painful to watch.



You can't score nearly 21 PPG on just put backs and FTs. If that was all there is to scoring, every big man with a pulse would do it.

Every "big man with a pule" doesn't have his athleticism. You're being ridiculous.

[resistanze]

Ben Wallace was a terrific athlete and very long. Why couldn't he do it?

Funny that two of the Howard haters in this thread are Raptors and Cavs fans, two teams Howard routinely torches.

Howard has great instincts around the rim, the same reason he's great at rebounds and putbacks. No one is saying Howard is a bad player, but he has no post game. But keep arguing against the world, you look like a genius. Maybe you should rewatch the Finals.

Funny you'd bring up the Raptors, because Bosh always seems to go off against the Magic. Not sure what that has to do with Howard's lack of a post game, though.

[jag]

Ben Wallace was a terrific athlete and very long. Why couldn't he do it?

Funny that two of the Howard haters in this thread are Raptors and Cavs fans, two teams Howard routinely torches.

Ben Wallace is 5'3". No, he is not "very long."

[HeyIt'sMe]

I'm not sure how bad "people make them out to be," but they are bad. He has no touch around the rim. He muscles opposing players under the rim and then dunks the ball. That is the extent of his post game. And this is coming from someone that was rooting for his no-post-game-havin ass during the ECF and the Finals. He would get the ball in the post...and it was painful to watch.



Every "big man with a pule" doesn't have his athleticism. You're being ridiculous.

You have to have SOME semblance of an offensive game to score 21 PPG in the NBA, I don't care if you are the most athletic player in the history of the game, it's just not as easy as having great athleticism and overpowering people.

I'm not making him out to be something that he's not, but good lord, he's got some offensive ability.

Also, why are you bringing up the ECF as being painful to watch? He had no problem scoring in that series at all.

[HeyIt'sMe]

And has a far superior post game.

Bosh's "post game" is shooting jumpers and driving to the rim.

[resistanze]

Bosh's "post game" is shooting jumpers and driving to the rim.

Two things Howard can't do :lmao

[HeyIt'sMe]

There are no Howard haters on this board. Hes not good enough to hate just yet. You are just a blind homer trying to elevate Howards grade schoolish post moves. I think even Kareem said the same about Howard.

Kareem said he was predictable, not that he didn't have any moves. You can be predictable and have moves. I also agreed with that assessment when it was made.

[HeyIt'sMe]

Two things Howard can't do :lmao

It doesn't matter, because the Raptors would trade Bosh for Howard in a heart beat.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Lets put it this way, if Howard worked on his post game half as much as Duncan, he'd be unstoppable.

[HeyIt'sMe]

Ben Wallace is 5'3". No, he is not "very long."

Wallace is only 6'7, but with about a 7'3 wingspan, so yes, he is long.

[resistanze]

It doesn't matter, because the Raptors would trade Bosh for Howard in a heart beat.

The Raptors don't have enough good shooters to make that trade beneficial.

[HeyIt'sMe]

Hey kid, at this point, you are stepping way over your boundaries. We just waxed that ass in the finals. You are in no position to be sassing to your master this way. You might get pinked for this if you keep it up.

I'm a fan. Neither you nor I are anyone's "masters." Take a step down from the serious ladder and come back down to Earth. Thanks.

[VivaPopovich]

they're either stacked or fucked with the money they're shelling out for a number of backups.

Odds on carter lasting an entire season?

65%

[HeyIt'sMe]

The Raptors don't have enough good shooters to make that trade beneficial.

With Turkoglu, Calderon, and Bargnani, they have enough shooters. And again, it doesn't matter, because a Bosh led team is never going to go anywhere, anyways, so they'd be better off trading for Howard, building around his defense and rebounding, and redoing everything from scratch.

[jag]

I'm not making him out to be something that he's not, but good lord, he's got some offensive ability.

Ya, he does. And it's very limited.



Also, why are you bringing up the ECF as being painful to watch? He had no problem scoring in that series at all.

I didn't say the ECF was painful to watch, i said that the ECF and the Finals were painful to watch when Dwight was trying to work his post game.

[HeyIt'sMe]

If someone has a vast array of moves, then its hard to predict them. When you only have two moves, and those moves are very amateurish, then you are going to have trouble against good defenders.

That's different than having "no moves whatsoever", though, no matter how amateurish they may be.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

:jack
they used Hedo ALOT this postseason in situations that no other player they currently have can.

lol magic

[HeyIt'sMe]

Ya, he does. And it's very limited.



I didn't say the ECF was painful to watch, i said that the ECF and the Finals were painful to watch when Dwight was trying to work his post game.

He worked his post game fine against the Cavs. Again, he had no trouble scoring at all against Cleveland's front line.

The Lakers are a different story. I've never debated otherwise on that one.

[resistanze]

With Turkoglu, Calderon, and Bargnani, they have enough shooters. And again, it doesn't matter, because a Bosh led team is never going to go anywhere, anyways, so they'd be better off trading for Howard, building around his defense and rebounding, and redoing everything from scratch.

I'd love Howard on my team. I'd love him even more if he learn some moves in the post. If I was content with getting to the finals, sure I'd take Howard as is.

But according to you, Howard = Kareem on the block, VC = Drexler and Lee + Turk = scrubs.

[KidCongo]

He worked his post game fine against the Cavs. Again, he had no trouble scoring at all against Cleveland's front line.

The Lakers are a different story. I've never debated otherwise on that one.

All he would do is beat Z down the court. Get position under the hoop and he was too fast and strong for Z. So a simple lay-up or dunk was all thats required.

[HeyIt'sMe]

Lets put it this way, if Howard worked on his post game half as much as Duncan, he'd be unstoppable.

He might work on it, he just may not have the ability to develop a Duncan like post game. This offseason will tell the tale. This is the first offseason he's had in a long time to just sit back and work on his game. Knowing how poorly he played in the finals and what he has to work on, I'm expecting a lot of improvement. If he doesn't show it, he probably never will.

[Cry Havoc]

:lmao at people for getting on my case for "hating" on Shaq because he's "still a decent player" and then spending an entire two pages ripping Howard. Awesome. :lol

[HeyIt'sMe]

I'd love Howard on my team. I'd love him even more if he learn some moves in the post. If I was content with getting to the finals, sure I'd take Howard as is.

But according to you, Howard = Kareem on the block, VC = Drexler and Lee + Turk = scrubs.

Don't put words in my mouth. I never once said that he was Kareem on the block or anything near it. I've been plenty critical myself of Howard in the past when he's had bad games offensively. All I said is that he has SOME moves, not that he's McHale in the post.

That's all I ever said and I got jumped on. I'm not trying to make Dwight out to be something that he's not, but he does have some moves, no matter how ugly or pretty they may be.

[resistanze]

Don't put words in my mouth. I never once said that he was Kareem on the block or anything near it. I've been plenty critical myself of Howard in the past when he's had bad games offensively. All I said is that he has SOME moves, not that he's McHale in the post.

That's all I ever said and I got jumped on. I'm not trying to make Dwight out to be something that he's not, but he does have some moves, no matter how ugly or pretty they may be.
Well I never said I hated Howard. You put those words in my mouth because I didn't agree that Howard had a post game and added an ad hominem attack involving me being a Raptor fan.

You're taking the term "howard has no post game" too literally. No shit that he has SOME moves, but those moves are limited and not even well developed. It's not insulting to point out that most of his scoring comes off dunks/putbacks/alley-oops. In fact, it just highlights how athletically gifted he is (and his good instincts).

We're saying that if Howard develops his post game, he'll be the best bigman in the NBA by a far margin.

[jag]

I'm tired of arguing. It's pointless.

I don't dislike Howard, and you're acting as if you've seen him work some secret post moves that no one else has seen.

It's a well known fact that Howard has an extremely limited and unpolished post game. He has bad footwork, erratic and line-drive hookshots, and no jump shot.

You're ability to offer objective basketball takes has obviously been compromised due to your emotional instability and homerism. Good day.

[Cry Havoc]

I'm tired of arguing. It's pointless.

I don't dislike Howard, and you're acting as if you've seen him work some secret post moves that no one else has seen.

It's a well known fact that Howard has an extremely limited and unpolished post game. He has bad footwork, erratic and line-drive hookshots, and no jump shot.

You're ability to offer objective basketball takes has obviously been compromised due to your emotional instability and homerism. Good day.

The way others are talking makes him sound like he's Shawn Bradley when he has the ball. That isn't the case.

[redzero]

For a moment there, I thought duncan228 was actually going to state his opinion.

[Trainwreck2100]

For a moment there, I thought duncan228 was actually going to state his opinion.

her opinion

[DJB]

1. Cleveland Cavaliers

2. Los Angeles Lakers

3. Boston Celtics

4-30. The kit & kaboodle.

:lmao

[DJB]

Dwight Howard's finals performance is all that needs to be mentioned. He's overrated. Period.