Heat: Barkley: Lebron does more for his team..

[The Batman]

And who is LeBron's compe ion btw?

[monosylab1k]

This.

MJ had more failures than people want to remember or acknowledge. However his was in a different manner than Lebron.

MJ's failures was due to poor shot selection, and not being willing to defer to the open man when massively overwhelmed.

Lebron's failures was due to limitations in his game (needing to use post game and fine tune his jumper)



What is also unfair for Lebron, is the fact that he is being so heavily knocked for losing in the Finals, when he was getting to the Finals well before he even hit his prime and was still developing his skillset, while MJ finally started making the finals once he fully developed his game and hit his prime.

Lebron and MJ both won their first le when they were 27 years old. Both players very clearly hit their primes in that season (Lebron finally began to use his post game and hit jumpers, while MJ finally began to trust his teammates when he needed them most) Before that? Lebron was getting to the playoffs, never lost in the 1st round, and got to the Finals twice. MJ flamed out in the first round a few times and never got to the Finals. Now I can kind of understand knocking Lebron for his loss to the Mavs, as he wasn't as aggressive as he should have been, although a good counter argument exists that the Mavs clear defensive focus was entirely on not allowing Lebron to beat them, and allowing Wade to do whatever he wanted. It was obvious that Lebron received WAY more defensive attention than Wade did. But knocking him for the loss to the Spurs is ridiculous considering he simply lost to a team that was FARRRRRRRR superior to his garbage Cavs team that he somehow carried to the Finals.

IMO the way Lebron lost to the Mavs is pretty much on the same plateau as the way MJ kept getting pounded by the Pistons. Both teams had gameplans tailor made for Lebron/MJ to make mistakes that would cost their team dearly (Mavs preyed on Lebron's unselfishness by overloading him constantly while leaving Wade in one-on-one coverage in hopes that Lebron would defer to Wade, Pistons preyed on MJ's extreme selfishness by trying to "punk" him and his teammates in hopes that MJ would try to do too much for himself and not trust his teammates). The only difference was that Lebron was making it to the Finals, while MJ was getting pounded by Detroit in the 2nd and 3rd rounds.

Still don't understand the double standards that Lebron haters/MJ lovers continue to have, when they both went through virtually identical struggles to begin their careers before they started winning championships. Ultimately, their biggest obstacle they had to overcome was mental (Lebron needing to be more alpha, MJ needing to be less alpha).

So MJ gets knocked for beating weak Finals compe ion and not getting to the Finals earlier in his career, and then LeBron gets propped up for repeatedly making the Finals early in his career despite losing. But what about MJ competing against extremely difficult Eastern Conference compe ion, while LeBron is going up against an Eastern Conference that's been historically weak for over a decade?

[RsxPiimp]

Jordan played weaker compe ion.

The Spurs and Mavs teams that Lebron lost to, are probably superior to all of the teams that Jordan beat in the finals.

Brings up a great debate. The sonics was one of the toughest team Jordan faced evident by his struggles. Yet he still had a far better averages throughout the entire series. You could say the Mavs we're Lebron's since that was his most awful NBA Fibals series to date. Between the championship team Mavs and the 2006 Sonics, I'd say Jordan faced a much tougher compe ion.

As far as the easiest? You can pick OKC for Lebrons career and Jordan's was the 93 Phoenix Suns. I'd still say, Jordan's compe ion is tougher.

Jordan faced the Knicks, Magic and Pacers in his conference. The Heat meanwhile had it easier with Indiana and an older Celtics team.

[Gummi Clutch]

"Dad killer" is one of the worst shticks I have ever seen. If it doesn't portray Braun fan insecurity I don't know what does. Just swallow the fact that he will probably be top 10 all time, because chances are he'll never be close to MJ.

[The Batman]

So MJ gets knocked for beating weak Finals compe ion and not getting to the Finals earlier in his career, and then LeBron gets propped up for repeatedly making the Finals early in his career despite losing. But what about MJ competing against extremely difficult Eastern Conference compe ion, while LeBron is going up against an Eastern Conference that's been historically weak for over a decade?

.
With 2 other superstars in their prime. The whole debate is stupid.

[monosylab1k]

.
With 2 other superstars in their prime. The whole debate is stupid.

LeBron should be getting to the Finals by default, considering just how weak the EC has been. Honestly only going once with Cleveland is a massive underacheivement.

[rogues]

"Dad killer" is one of the worst shticks I have ever seen. If it doesn't portray Braun fan insecurity I don't know what does. Just swallow the fact that he will probably be top 10 all time, because chances are he'll never be close to MJ.

Your insecurity of the EC showing in every one of your ing posts..sit down, boy..

[The Batman]

LeBron should be getting to the Finals by default, considering just how weak the EC has been. Honestly only going once with Cleveland is a massive underacheivement.

Exactly....Even Iverson took a squad with the same talent level and won a game in the finals against tougher finals compe ion than LeBron in Cleveland. Definite underachievement and not sure why he gets the excuses.

[monosylab1k]

because chances are he'll never be close to MJ.

Even if I don't think he's close to Jordan's level of greatness yet, he's certainly on pace to get there and probably surpass him. He's got one 3-peat all but locked up, and he could have another 7 or 8 years where's he's the undisputed best player in the world. His body type is so solid that he's not nearly as at risk to have a Kobe-type injury meltdown. As his athleticism fades his shooting will only get better, along with more improvements to his post game. He could end up equaling Jordan's 6, maybe even get to 7 or 8.

[Phillip]

So MJ gets knocked for beating weak Finals compe ion and not getting to the Finals earlier in his career, and then LeBron gets propped up for repeatedly making the Finals early in his career despite losing. But what about MJ competing against extremely difficult Eastern Conference compe ion, while LeBron is going up against an Eastern Conference that's been historically weak for over a decade?

My point wasn't to prop up Lebron or knock MJ. The point is that Lebron gets unfairly criticized, while everyone always wants to conveniently forget MJ's flaws and shortcomings. Perhaps if MJ got to the Finals earlier in his career and had a couple losses, while Lebron's losses never happened in the finals, this would be different, but regardless, I think it's stupid to knock a player extra simply because they failed in the Finals, as opposed to earlier rounds, especially when both times that Lebron lost in the finals, it was to superior teams.

[Malik Hairston]

.
With 2 other superstars in their prime. The whole debate is stupid.

Who are these superstars in their primes?..

[Malik Hairston]

Exactly....Even Iverson took a squad with the same talent level and won a game in the finals against tougher finals compe ion than LeBron in Cleveland. Definite underachievement and not sure why he gets the excuses.

Iverson's supporting cast was levels better, along with having a much better coach..

[Phillip]

.
With 2 other superstars in their prime. The whole debate is stupid.

um what?

when was Bosh ever a true superstar??

And Wade was a superstar for their first season together, and since then has been injury prone and lazy.

[Phillip]

Iverson's supporting cast was levels better, along with having a much better coach..

lol that comment baffled me as well. Mutumbo alone was a huge advantage that Lebron didn't have, not to mention being hindered by a moron like Mike Brown

[Malik Hairston]

The East from 2008 to 2010 was > the West, and it was just as good in 2011, tbh..

Miami has also been much better against the West than the East in the Lebron era, too, East teams give them more problems..this year is an anomaly, though, as the East has been historically bad..

[Malik Hairston]

Anyways, this thread isn't Lebron vs. Dad Killer in regards to impact..it's Lebron vs. Dad Killer in regards to responsibility..

I wonder how much better Lebron could be if he had relatively minimal responsibilities like Dad Killer did, tbh..

[StrengthAndHonor]

Brings up a great debate. The sonics was one of the toughest team Jordan faced evident by his struggles. Yet he still had a far better averages throughout the entire series. You could say the Mavs we're Lebron's since that was his most awful NBA Fibals series to date. Between the championship team Mavs and the 2006 Sonics, I'd say Jordan faced a much tougher compe ion.

As far as the easiest? You can pick OKC for Lebrons career and Jordan's was the 93 Phoenix Suns. I'd still say, Jordan's compe ion is tougher.

Jordan faced the Knicks, Magic and Pacers in his conference. The Heat meanwhile had it easier with Indiana and an older Celtics team.

I agree, people forget Jordan beat Shaq and Penny during at the height of their careers, the Pat Riley Knicks and of course one of the most balanced team in the 90's, the Pacers who almost beat Chicago btw. I'll even go out on a limb and say Larry's Pacers would demolish the Heat because of their size.

Id also like to add how underrated the Sonics were. Their defense was stupendous.

[monosylab1k]

lol that comment baffled me as well. Mutumbo alone was a huge advantage that Lebron didn't have, not to mention being hindered by a moron like Mike Brown

Mutombo was 34 years old that season, it wasn't like he was in his prime. The next best player on that Sixers team was freaking Eric Snow. LeBron's Cleveland teams were all quite a bit better than the 2001 Sixers.

[Clipper Nation]

LeBron should be getting to the Finals by default, considering just how weak the EC has been. Honestly only going once with Cleveland is a massive underacheivement.

Comparing the East then, with Detroit, Orlando and Boston teams that were better than Cleveland, to the East now

[StrengthAndHonor]

Iverson's supporting cast was levels better, along with having a much better coach..

I don't know about that. Iverson would kill to have Wade, Bosh or even Allen.

Aaron McKie was honestly his second option with Tyrone Hill and Mutombo chipping in a measly 20 pts per game.


NM, you're probably talking about the Cavs.

[Clipper Nation]

LeBron has been a complete letdown twice already in the finals.

Dad Killer choked in the first round multiple times, was Bird's , and was the Bad Boys' until Stern finally started changing rules so he could win....

[monosylab1k]

Comparing the East then, with Detroit, Orlando and Boston teams that were better than Cleveland, to the East now

Detroit was irrelevant after 2007. Boston had one great season, after that they were just as vulnerable as any other team. Orlando was another midlevel team that had one fluke year, only because LeBron played like a in that series.

[monosylab1k]

And again, in the Eastern Conference we're talking about maybe 1 or 2 other teams that could potentially challenge LeBron. As opposed to the Western Conference that, more often than not, was stacked from 1 to 8 with quality teams.

[JoeTait75]

Brings up a great debate. The sonics was one of the toughest team Jordan faced evident by his struggles. Yet he still had a far better averages throughout the entire series. You could say the Mavs we're Lebron's since that was his most awful NBA Fibals series to date. Between the championship team Mavs and the 2006 Sonics, I'd say Jordan faced a much tougher compe ion.

As far as the easiest? You can pick OKC for Lebrons career and Jordan's was the 93 Phoenix Suns. I'd still say, Jordan's compe ion is tougher.

Jordan faced the Knicks, Magic and Pacers in his conference. The Heat meanwhile had it easier with Indiana and an older Celtics team.

Once the Bad Boys were no longer a contender the East was definitely the weaker conference during MJ's prime. IMO the only team Chicago played during the EC playoffs from 1992 through '98 that would have gotten to the Finals in the West was Indiana in '98- maybe. The early '90s Cavs, the Knicks, Orlando, Miami in '97- none of those teams were at the level of the top teams in the West at the time, IMO.

[JoeTait75]

Detroit was irrelevant after 2007. Boston had one great season, after that they were just as vulnerable as any other team. Orlando was another midlevel team that had one fluke year, only because LeBron played like a in that series.

Not that Orlando was a great team, but they were just a lethal matchup for the Cavaliers. Cleveland had no one that could handle Dewey Howard and no one that could handle Orlando's tall perimeter shooters. Not to mention the coaching matchup.